Bleeding4Metal Forum
Zombies => Metal & Talk (english) => Thema gestartet von: Virvatuli am Oktober 15, 2005, 05:21:13 Nachmittag
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Nice indeed :) And what's wrong with guns? Guns don't kill, people do...
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Indeed! I sleep with that gun within reach when I'm in the house by myself. I will NOT be a victim if I can avoid it. (I also am certified to physically hurt people via hand-to-hand combat, thanks to a self-defense class I took. I'm not a martial arts master, but I can do some dammage if someone decides to assault me). Basically, if I hear someone break into my house, I'll be getting behind my bed, and if they try to come into my room, I say "I have a gun!" I REALLY hope that never happens because I don't want to shoot anyone. But my own life is more important to me.
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And some day a small kid walks around in the house and finds a nice shiny thing and thinking: Wow, what's this? Pulls the trigger and Bang!, that little kid is dead. Yeh right, guns don't kill, people do. So who killed this kid?
I don't blame you for wanting a gun. I like weapons my self, but I would NEVER keep one in my house. If something like my little story above happend to my son, I would kill my self instantly.
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People kill. People are weak, people are easily led astray. People are errant. People kill more easily and a lot quicker with weapons.
I don't blame you neither, please don't take this as personal offense. :)
But I don't have good feelings with weapons in the reach for anybody either. :?
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The thing with kids and guns: Proper storage is required so they DON'T get ahold of it. My dad is a retired cop. I can guarantee you, I never knew where he hid his guns. I knew where the hunting guns were, but they were locked up, and it was made very clear that they are NOT toys, and that I was NOT to touch them without an adult around.
Proper gun safety is VITAL if you have guns and children (actually, it's just smart PERIOD. Children or no). I was also trained in proper gun safety at a young age. Boundaries were set, and I was never left alone long enough to go "Oh gee, a toy! BLAM!" It's just common sense not to leave young children alone in the house for that long anyway. By the time I was old enough to be left alone in the house, I was at a high enough cognitive level to not confuse a real gun with a toy gun, nor was I going to go "Hey, I'll play with the real guns!" Also, we don't keep them loaded. That's just stupid.
Also, I'm sure those of you with children have scisors and knives in the house. Those are hardly any less dangerous than guns. Yet the risk of the child getting ahold of one and getting hurt is the same. It's just that knives and scisors are so commonplace, no one really thinks of them as a "dangerous weapon."
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I wouldn't want a gun in my house either, but then again, I live in Finnland... ;) And I'd like to state my opinion about the world being a better place if we still fought with sticks and sticks only ;)
But c'mon. If the kids are so small that they don't understand that guns are dangerous, they probably wont be able to load them nor shoot with them (if they even find them...).
And there's a lot of dangerous objects in anybodys house anyways.
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And I'd like to state my opinion about the world being a better place if we still fought with sticks and sticks only ;)
I second that! Well...somewhat. I'd rather see swords and sheilds instead of bullets and kevlar. STEEL is the only honorable way to fight (and maybe blunt objects like staves and clubs), none of this silly ICBM crap.
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Right, I know a lot of you people come from countries and societies where guns are shunned and demonized, but as someone who's been around them since birth, I can tell you that with good parenting and teaching, guns can be perfectly safe, and actually increase your safety beyond a state of not having guns (statistically). My father always kept his guns far out of reach (top shelf of the closet, in some cases that were locked). When I got older, I was given a BB gun , which are only dangerous if you shoot someone in the face. But when I was given this gun, I was taught how to use it, how to clean it, and most importantly, how to use it safely. I was never to use it when an adult wasn't around, I was never to play with it indoors, I was always to wear eye protection, and I was always to never shoot towards anything but the target (usually old cans, those are fun to shoot at). From an early age I was taught how to be safe with guns, how to use them effectively, and how to keep other people from harming themselves with my guns. I never had one mishap growing up, and no one in my family did either. And guess what, with this proper training and all the saftety precautions, we are actually safer than someone without a gun (for instance a scenario where an armed robber breaks into your house at night). And for the record, in the scenario where the child kills himself: Poor parenting killed that child. No child should be left alone long enough for that to happen. That's a parental failure, not the fault of a gun. It's no different than leaving window cleaning chemicals where the kid can reach them.
If you don't like guns and don't want one, that's fine. Don't keep one. But don't berate others for keeping weapons while taking great care and precautions. Guns aren't something to be hated and feared. They're merely tools. It's the person wielding them that you should mind. Guns are inherently neutral. They can provide recreation, entertainment, a chance for people to bond together (like a father and son going hunting or to the shooting range), and a great deal of safety. Only when used improperly can they be a threat to innocents, and only then. So if people are taught to use them correctly (as AngelofMusic clearly has been, especially considering her father is a retired police officer), there's really no reason to show disgust.
And yes, that IS a nice silhouette. ;) (but she doesn't believe me)
EDIT: And yes, swords should be legalized as well. Think about it, what kind of criminal would try to attack someone with a big sword strapped to their back. I mean initially, there might be problems (as there always is when people are given new found freedoms), but over time, I think it would balance itself out. I know I'd carry a sword everywhere. I just think that there should be the same limitations placed on swords as guns. Then you'd be set.
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Oh, that reminds me...
I'd like to slap the genius that decided toy guns should look alot like REAL guns. That was a brilliant stroke of thinking, right there. Who the heck decided that toy guns should look realistic??? It's no wonder some children (negligent parenting rants aside...) find a real gun and play with it like it's a toy. Because the toys look real! So they don't know the difference! STUPID, STUPID TOY MANUFACTURERS!!! *twitch*
Back on topic: Arthy, you should post some of your band pictures.
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Beautiful silhouette, if it wasn't for the weapons... :?
While i also enjoy the pic,I would rather see you wielding a guitar..........hehehehe!!
Interesting conversation.I really have no opinion on guns one way or another. Though responsibility and safety should always be of importance.
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I'm so awkward with a guitar. Really, I am.
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Oh, that reminds me...
I'd like to slap the genius that decided toy guns should look alot like REAL guns. That was a brilliant stroke of thinking, right there. Who the heck decided that toy guns should look realistic??? It's no wonder some children (negligent parenting rants aside...) find a real gun and play with it like it's a toy. Because the toys look real! So they don't know the difference! STUPID, STUPID TOY MANUFACTURERS!!! *twitch*
Good point there :)
*adds "punish the toy manufacturers" to to-do-when-I-become-a-dictator list*
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I have to add something here.When you own a gun there are more chances in using it than when you don't.Just because it's there.Whether somebody decides to own one,or not, is one's own choice.
I personally believe that all sorts of weaponry should be destroyed worldwide -for good!-
but since such a thing isn't likely to happen, i think that people should have a proper training together with a psychological evaluation , before they are allowed to acquire a gun.
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Precautions and training in proper care are good. Still, why at all do guns "increase safety"? Why are they necessary? Because everybody has one? So they don't give any more safety than one would have without guns at all. But - unfortunately - that's hypothetic, I'm afraid. :(
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Those are good questions, Odin, and often brought up by anti-gun people. I never said they were necissary (believe me, there are some people that just should NOT own a gun simply because they're idiots.) Both cars and guns claim lives every year. The only difference is that cars are almost a necissary evil. The same goes for knives and scisors. My point in arguing the "gun safety" issue is not to try and sway anyone to the side of "Guns are great!" but only to try and get people to realize that just because someone has one, does not mean that suddenly everyone in the household is at risk. You're at risk every time you leave the house, every time you handle a knife, every time you breathe the air.
I have AIM and MSN. I really would be glad to talk to any of you on there about the gun issue. Heck, I'd be glad to just talk to any of you via IM ANYWAY! :) Please feel free to add me on MSN: Silabub82@aol.com or on AIM (But let me know YOUR AIM, I have privacy settings on) at Silabub82
All this from one photo. Gracious. :shock:
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Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?
Cause over here it's written in the law that it's illegal to own one unless you don't have a certin promision. It's not like any one can go to the gun store and wait a few weeks and then you get one in your hand. In my opinion this is what cause so many accidents and crimes with guns.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'll leave it here.
But c'mon. If the kids are so small that they don't understand that guns are dangerous, they probably wont be able to load them nor shoot with them (if they even find them...).
But the kid accident has happend sevral times.
And there's a lot of dangerous objects in anybodys house anyways.[/
Equivalent a gun? ;)
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Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?
Look at Switzerland or Israel, where a vast majority of people owns even automatic assault rifles, as most of them are armed forces reserve. Their rate of deaths caused by firearms is much lower, too.
I believe Michael Moore delivered a partial answer to that question in "Bowling for Columbine": He showed a difference between the mentality of Canadians and Americans and I believe the same goes for differences in the mentality of Americans and most other (western) people, too. It might have to do with a general feeling of a lack of security and might also be caused by a decreased inhibition as far as violence is concerned (what ever that might be caused by).
Just a few thoughts thrown in while rushing along. Very busy these days.
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But the kid accident has happend sevral times.
A japanese boy (10yrs) impaled his classmate to a fence. It had nothing to do with guns. People kill. And when it's about kids, well... Blame canad... no! The parents ;) And the marketing. Violent games. TV. And and and and...
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Unfortunately, it's easy for criminals and violent criminal offenders to get ahold of firearms (illegaly). Also, most states do not allow concealed carry for firearms, and the criminals know that the average person does not have a gun, thus making them an easier target.
Also, the USA has more people than Scandinavia, so naturally rate of violent crimes is going to be higher. Las Vegas has the higest murder rate in the United States. Las Vegas is also the fastest growing city in the US. More people = more chance for violence, whether it be with guns, knives, or sharp, pointy sticks.
I would also like to point out that you hear about gun crimes often because that is what is newsworthy. Anti-gun people use those instances as an excuse to say "SEE??? Guns are a problem!!!" yet every day people get stabbed to death, or die in motorcycle and car crashes and no one bats an eyelash. It doesn't even make the national news.
here's some information about gun death in the USA: http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
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Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?
It's not easy to get a gun. If you don't have a permit (which you have to register at the courthouse for), you have to undergo a background check, and the government is notified that you have been given a gun. If you have a criminal record, you cannot own a gun (this excludes things like parking violations and the like). The US has more gun related crimes because there are MORE PEOPLE, and there's a lot more ground to cover. Finland is a much smaller country than the United States, so of course they'll have less crimes overall. Less people means less crimes usually. If the rates of crime were the same percentage (or even a bit higher in Finland), even then they would have less crimes total because of the sheer numbers of people.
Cause over here it's written in the law that it's illegal to own one unless you don't have a certin promision. It's not like any one can go to the gun store and wait a few weeks and then you get one in your hand. In my opinion this is what cause so many accidents and crimes with guns.
Over 75% of the crimes that are committed with firearms are committed with firearms that were obtained ILLEGALLY. That means, in order to get the gun, they had to break the law. This means they stole it, bought it from an unscrupulous dealer, or got it on the black market. Either way, it's foolishness to punish the people who use guns responsibly and safely and legally. Laws don't matter when people don't care about laws (the very definition of a criminal). So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative. If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless. Statistics prove that guns lessen the number of victims of violent crimes. Rapes, murders, and kidnappings are prevented thanks to people using guns for self defense. If you have a solution that makes guns unneccesary and keeps criminals from getting them, then by all means let it be known. If not, you have no reason to hate guns. They do more good than harm when used correctly.
But the kid accident has happend sevral times.
Yeah, because there are a lot of irresponsible parents. The responsible people who use guns correctly and safely shouldn't be punished because some people are too irresponsible to monitor their children. I will not be punished for the crimes of others.
Equivalent a gun? ;)
Certainly! There's hazardous chemicals, knives, other sharp things, stairs, matches, lighters, machinery. There are tons of things that can be deadly if a child plays with them unattended. Most guns aren't even kept loaded, and if a gun isn't loaded, it's not dangerous. The only time this accident occurs is when someone keeps a loaded gun around in a place where a child can reach it, and that's foolishness on the parent's part. Once again, I shouldn't have to be penalized because some idiot left his loaded gun lying around for his kid to play with.
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The US has more gun related crimes because there are MORE PEOPLE, and there's a lot more ground to cover. ...Less people means less crimes usually.
According to Moore's documentary about guns and crime in the US -the one with Heston's interview - (btw, Heston in Greek means shit on him ahahahahhah :twisted:) the percentage between crimes related to guns and population is blown way out of proportion.
Yes, you live in a huge country , which only makes matters worse, but that's a reason why you remain split into states and have different laws and penalties in each and every one.
So, what are you telling us? that the individual states (which are smaller than Germany , England etc) cannot act against crime?
So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative. If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless. Statistics prove that guns lessen the number of victims of violent crimes. Rapes, murders, and kidnappings are prevented thanks to people using guns for self defense. If you have a solution that makes guns unneccesary and keeps criminals from getting them, then by all means let it be known. If not, you have no reason to hate guns. They do more good than harm when used correctly.
Stop manufacturing guns.Those you have already can last you till the end of time.
Learn martial arts.
Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
Stop messing around with the other countries.How long will it take your governments to realise that actions cause reactions and reactions are not always pleasant?
Vote a pacifist for a president next time (if you still have one that is).
As for criminals getting hold of guns, well ,Arthyron, somebody made it easy for them to get one.Your country produces guns like Hellas produces lettuce. These guns need to be sold.Need i continue?
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So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.
Education and enlightenment.
Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).
If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless.
Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?
This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go... :?
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Unfortunately, it's easy for criminals and violent criminal offenders to get ahold of firearms (illegaly). Also, most states do not allow concealed carry for firearms, and the criminals know that the average person does not have a gun, thus making them an easier target.
But why is that? Criminals have ways to get their hands on firearms all over the world. But in other countries the average person does not "need" a firearm to protect oneself against them. And be assured that other countries have problems with muggers etc., too.
Also, the USA has more people than Scandinavia, so naturally rate of violent crimes is going to be higher.
The rate of deaths caused by firearms is way beyond any relation:
Population Switzerland: 7,489,370 (according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html)
Deaths due to firearms (according to Moore's documentary): 91
Percentage: 0.0012150
Population USA: 295,734,134 (according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html)
Deaths due to firearms (according to Moore's documentary, recalled from memory, not 100% sure): about 9.500
Percentage: 0.0032123
More people = more chance for violence, whether it be with guns, knives, or sharp, pointy sticks.
Right. But again that's not a US-only problem. Plus: Some things like guns can be forbidden, sticks and knives can't, because there's sensible use for them, too. Besides: Our law does not allow certain types of knives either, for example.
I would also like to point out that you hear about gun crimes often because that is what is newsworthy. Anti-gun people use those instances as an excuse to say "SEE??? Guns are a problem!!!" yet every day people get stabbed to death, or die in motorcycle and car crashes and no one bats an eyelash. It doesn't even make the national news.
That might be a US-problem. Not every motorcycle or car crash and not every victim of a "deadly stabber" makes it to our national news, but the same goes for gun victims.
here's some information about gun death in the USA: http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm
Seems to be made by a pro-gunner. It's not bad, but the information has to be treated with caution - just like websites by fundamentalist anti-gunners of course.
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www.kidsandguns.org appears to be fairly unbiased (aka, not written by strictly "pro-gun" or "anti-gun" people) and more up-to-date than the other link.
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According to Moore's documentary about guns and crime in the US -the one with Heston's interview - (btw, Heston in Greek means shit on him ahahahahhah :twisted:) the percentage between crimes related to guns and population is blown way out of proportion.
I really hope quoting Michael Moore was a joke.....you do realize he fabricated most of the "facts" in his movies. Watch any of the several rebuttles to his mockumentaries and you'll see just how fraudulent he is. No one in their right minds believes what Michael Moore has to say. Seriously, compare the actual facts with what he says, and you'll see how wrong he is. Notice he didn't say by HOW MUCH the percentage was blown out of proportion. That's the mark of someone who has something to hide.
Yes, you live in a huge country , which only makes matters worse, but that's a reason why you remain split into states and have different laws and penalties in each and every one.
So, what are you telling us? that the individual states (which are smaller than Germany , England etc) cannot act against crime?
Of course they can act against crime. One way to do so is to make sure that you're not a target for criminals. Criminals don't want to prey on people who can defend themselves. They want the easy target, easy money. If someone has the will and the means to stand up and defend themselves, the criminal will avoid them. I've seen several interviews with people who are locked up in jails for the rest of their lives. They said the biggest deterrent when dealing with potential victims, was they were always taking a risk, because they didn't know who had a gun on them and who didn't, and that if it was likely someone had a gun on them, they'd avoid them (for instance a guy wearing an NRA hat).
Stop manufacturing guns.Those you have already can last you till the end of time.
Why? There are enough guns out there to arm most of the population. I fail to see how more are going to matter. If criminals want guns, they're going to get them, as most of the surplus weapons are on the black market anyway, out of the hands of legitimate dealers. Plus advancements in firearm technology make them safer and more effective. In the last 10 or 20 years, they have figured out ways to build in all kinds of integrated safety measures into consumer firearms to avoid accidents. More will be discovered as technology progresses.
Learn martial arts.
Martial Arts matters very little. I took martial arts when I was younger, and ya know, it doesn't make you a better or worse fighter. Only experience and natural ability truly matter in a fight, because real fights involve ambient objects, the environment. Martial arts show you better ways to do things, techniques and such, but ultimately, if someone ELSE has a gun or a knife or whatever, all the martial arts in the world aren't going to matter. Black belt or not, you're not bullet proof. I can easily defend myself against most people, I'm a rather large and strong individual, and quite capable in a scrap, but if someone has a gun, all my strength is useless. And if we stop using guns, then only those who would use them for evil will have them, and we'll be powerless.
Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
What on EARTH are you talking about? We simply do NOT have the most illiterate people in the world. That has got to be the most ignorant, false statement I've heard in a long time. We're one of the better educated nations around the world. Our educational system has its flaws as all nations do, but how can you compare us to countries like some of the third world nations around the world where people still live in houses made of wood and straw and mud. That's simply absrd. Less illiterate people does NOT mean less crime. Knowledge is independent of morality. There are plenty of intelligent and well-learned people in the world that would kill a child without a second thought.
Stop messing around with the other countries.How long will it take your governments to realise that actions cause reactions and reactions are not always pleasant?
Vote a pacifist for a president next time (if you still have one that is).
As for criminals getting hold of guns, well ,Arthyron, somebody made it easy for them to get one.Your country produces guns like Hellas produces lettuce. These guns need to be sold.Need i continue?
Oh I see what it's about. Now it's about politics, and not about guns. I knew there was a hidden agenda in there somewhere. Why don't you mind your own business and stick to YOUR country and not tell me what to do? How about that? What does my president have to do with the topic of guns? Nothing. So keep this about guns or don't talk at all. I'm sick of Europeans acting like they have all the right answers and know everything about my nation's government, how it works, and how it "should" be run. Guess who's selling the guns to criminals? Not the USA. It's all the other countries in the world that are selling their former military weapons to shady people who are then selling the weapons on the black market to criminals. We're responsible with our firearms sales. Can you say the same for your government?
Education and enlightenment.
Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).
I agree, but how does one go about that? You can't force morality on people, and contrary to what you think, education does not simply solve all problems. As I said, I know tons of very intelligent and well educated people that are simply just not good people, people with very low morals. Moral education comes mostly from one's parents and a bit from outside sources like friends, the media, and things like that. I agree that parents need to do a better job, but once again, how do you enforce things like that? You can't.
Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?
This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go...
Most of the time you don't even have to shoot anyone. Most gun owners who carry guns for protection will never have to fire it in defense. All they have to do is simply draw it and the criminal more often than not runs away, because criminals want a WEAK victim, they don't want to endanger themselves. Criminals are like predators and scavengers. They prey on the weak. If someone can prove they're not weak, the criminal will usually flee.
And yes, that's why we're not forcing you to carry a gun if you dont' want to. That's up to you. I don't carry a gun, simply because my city is safe and I haven't felt the need to (as I said earlier, I can usually handle myself in a fight well if I need to). But if people want to or if they feel the need to, and have met all the requirements set forth for gun ownership, then they should be able to if they so desire. I don't believe in taking freedoms away from people simply because some people don't exercise those certain freedoms. That's stupid.
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Look, I'm NOT very good at debating. At all.
So I'm going to cover the points that stood out most to me:
Education and enlightenment.
I agree. In fact, that's what I've been on about this whole time - in regards to proper handling and storage of guns. If a person chooses to own a gun, they should read up on just what owning a gun entails, and make themselves familiar with all safety precautions involving gun ownership, use, and storage.
I have noticed that many of you are reacting to this gun issue as if Arthyron and I are saying everyone should own a gun. By no means am I saying that everyone SHOULD own a gun. But for some people it is almost a necissary option. Some people live in very dangerous neighborhoods. Even in my own small town, tragedy struck a few years ago when some people broke into an older man's house and murdered him. He had no way of defending himself, and these people KNEW he lived alone.
If some men break into my house with the intent to rape and/or murder me, they could EASILY overpower me.
Learn martial arts.
I took a self-defense class, but it was a four week class, and while I can defend myself hand-to-hand, if they have weapons, I'm pretty much dead if I have no other way of defending myself. This does not mean that I will automatically shoot first and ask questions later. It merely means that when I say "I have a gun!" they will either leave (this would be ideal) or they will come in at me anyway, in which case I'd have little choice. I don't want to kill anyone. But my life comes first.
Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
EXCUSE ME??? I see the mud-slinging has begun. :roll: You know what? Even educated people murder others. Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women. The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women! Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.
By the way...here is a map of adult illiteracy rates worldwide. http://www.uis.unesco.org/en/stats/statistics/ed/map_illit_monde2000.jpg
Hmm...it seems less than 10% of our adult population is illiterate. So what facts and studies were you basing your statement about US illiteracy on?
Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?
So if someone breaks into my house, I should just sit by and let them? Considering most robbers seldom leave witnesses, who do you think is going to come out the worse for it? I don't know about you, but I am NOT willing to risk my life on the off chance they'll just take some things and let me live.
That might be a US-problem. Not every motorcycle or car crash and not every victim of a "deadly stabber" makes it to our national news, but the same goes for gun victims.
This much is true. In the US there are MANY people who go to either one extreme or the other. Alot of us fall somewhere in the middle, but we are outnumbered by the more vocal anti-this, anti-that, pro-this, pro-that people.
Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).
Not necissarily. Again, many smart, educated people have committed serious crimes. You also bring up an ethical issue. You cannot force morals or ethics on people. That is my biggest gripe with the Extremist Conservative Right here in the US - they want to force THEIR morals and ethics on people. You can't force anyone to come around to your way of thinking.
That includes the issue of guns. I do NOT believe that EVERYONE should have a gun. But how do you regulate just who is fit and who isn't? People lie. People may do what is necissary to appear fit for all intents and purposes, but then once they get what they want, they drop the pretense and show their true colors. Completely banning guns all together would be foolish. It would make some currently law-abiding citizens into criminals, and it would give the already existing criminals more excuse. Bear in mind, I'm talking about the US, and NOT Europe. It's a different culture here. What works for you does not necissarily work for us.
However, I hear about quite alot of violence in Europe that is non-gun related. Over at the Nightwish forums and Dragonforce forums there are alot of people from the UK. I hear alot from these people about knifings and beatings, all over silly things like mobile phones, and bigger t hings, like race. When I was in London in 2004, a big story on the news was about a man who had killed an elderly couple and was on the loose (they did catch him). And I seem to recall a Swedish official being stabbed to death in a department store a few years back.
Pacifism is NOT the answer. Not while there are still many violent people and groups out there. But neither is extreme force. Unfortunately, the human race is a violent one, and until ALL peoples find a happy medium between force and pacifism, there will always be squabbles over these kinds of issues.
And just as a side note: I've noticed that this topic went from basically being about guns and kids, to gun policy overall.
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EXCUSE ME??? I see the mud-slinging has begun. :roll: You know what? Even educated people murder others. Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women. The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women! Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.
Sounds like insane people to me... But illiterance leads easily to desperation, which can lead to certain violent acts. And I believe, that most of your gun killers are those, who only do it once? Like a robbery goes wrong, and then they take the guns out... But probably there is something seriously wrong with your mind if you kill tens of people, and madmen walk everywhere around this planet. But those who only kill because desperation... Aren't they often poor people? What if they would've had a better education and perhaps a job now? They wouldn't have the need to comit crimes, I guess...
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Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
EXCUSE ME??? I see the mud-slinging has begun. :roll: You know what? Even educated people murder others. Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women. The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women! Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.
I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.
This btw is a problem that won't be solved in the near future anywhere all over the world. It is a sad and unavoidable fact that jobs for low-educated people are becoming less and lesser day by day. This will lead to poverty which might lead to envy and both of them can lead to that kind of crime.
But again: I think that a major problem in this whole issue is that Americans are confronted with crime and violence differently from people in other countries which makes them believe they have to protect themselves that way.
One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example. Quite simple thought: A guy with a gun in his hand is standing behind you (or in front of you) and asks you to pass over your purse slowly. You try to reach the gun you hide under your jacket and pull it out and just in that moment the robber pulls the trigger.
Until everyone's allowed to have a loaded automatic assault rifle with them clearly visible, the chance that one might perhaps wear a weapon is hardly to be considered a scare-off.
And when it's not a scare-off, what's it useful for then? As written above: Do you really think you could pull out and slacken a weapon without the robber actually realising? That guy would surely have to have serious alcohol and drug problems if so. And even if you could pull it out and slacken it: What makes you believe you would actually shoot faster and aim better than the guy in front of you or in your back? It's for sure a nice thing to hit the target on a shooting range, but the situation isn't comparable in a situation like a robbery.
Seriously, I never believed this whole pro-gun-argumentation. Again I refer to Moore who had a pretty good example in "Bowling...": Where do you draw the line? Should it be legal to own an A- or H-bomb for a civilian? Or a tank? Or C4? No? Why not? These can as well be used for self defense - against whomever.
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I really hope quoting Michael Moore was a joke.....you do realize he fabricated most of the "facts" in his movies. Watch any of the several rebuttles to his mockumentaries and you'll see just how fraudulent he is. No one in their right minds believes what Michael Moore has to say. Seriously, compare the actual facts with what he says, and you'll see how wrong he is. Notice he didn't say by HOW MUCH the percentage was blown out of proportion. That's the mark of someone who has something to hide.
I'm afraid i wasn't joking. I have watched many of his documentaries and he doesn't seem fraudulent to me. And what on earth would he be hiding? and from whom? Documentaries are based on facts and his annoyed too many people , didn't they? I haven't seen anybody taking the stand and contradicting any of his documentaries.If you can prove otherwise, please do so.
Why? There are enough guns out there to arm most of the population. I fail to see how more are going to matter. If criminals want guns, they're going to get them, as most of the surplus weapons are on the black market anyway, out of the hands of legitimate dealers. Plus advancements in firearm technology make them safer and more effective. In the last 10 or 20 years, they have figured out ways to build in all kinds of integrated safety measures into consumer firearms to avoid accidents. More will be discovered as technology progresses.
Sorry Arthyron, i do not see it that way.As i said, produced guns need to be sold.Sooner or later they come to the hands of those you do not want to own one.Weapon industries don't mind that.It's trade after all, isn't it? But people should care.What if technology made weapons safer to the user? Can it make weapons safer for the potential victim?
I guess not.That's not the point in making weapons , is it?
Martial Arts matters very little. I took martial arts when I was younger, and ya know, it doesn't make you a better or worse fighter. Only experience and natural ability truly matter in a fight, because real fights involve ambient objects, the environment. Martial arts show you better ways to do things, techniques and such, but ultimately, if someone ELSE has a gun or a knife or whatever, all the martial arts in the world aren't going to matter. Black belt or not, you're not bullet proof. I can easily defend myself against most people, I'm a rather large and strong individual, and quite capable in a scrap, but if someone has a gun, all my strength is useless.
Martial arts do make a difference.I didn't have the chance to take a course but i had a friend who used to be an instructor/soldier in the Foreign Legion and who taught me how to kill a person with my two bare hands in 6 seconds. But,i guess it's easier to use a gun rather than sweating in order to make a weapon out of your body.
And if we stop using guns, then only those who would use them for evil will have them, and we'll be powerless.
Well, if that's how you feel..
What on EARTH are you talking about? We simply do NOT have the most illiterate people in the world. That has got to be the most ignorant, false statement I've heard in a long time. We're one of the better educated nations around the world. Our educational system has its flaws as all nations do, but how can you compare us to countries like some of the third world nations around the world where people still live in houses made of wood and straw and mud. That's simply absrd.
@Arthyron and AoM: http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/ill-o14.shtml
and there's more if you don't like the socialist web page.
And @AoM, this is the way i feel about things and not a mud slide.
Less illiterate people does NOT mean less crime. Knowledge is independent of morality. There are plenty of intelligent and well-learned people in the world that would kill a child without a second thought.
Yes, it does.There are always exceptions to the rule.But the rule still remains the same.
Oh I see what it's about. Now it's about politics, and not about guns. I knew there was a hidden agenda in there somewhere. Why don't you mind your own business and stick to YOUR country and not tell me what to do? How about that? What does my president have to do with the topic of guns? Nothing. So keep this about guns or don't talk at all. I'm sick of Europeans acting like they have all the right answers and know everything about my nation's government, how it works, and how it "should" be run. We're responsible with our firearms sales. Can you say the same for your government?
My dear Arthyron, EVERYTHING is politics.Sooner or later you'll realise it.
There's no hidden agenda.Why should there be one? I speak my mind freely, cause that's what i was taught to do.I have no problem sticking to my country if you stick to yours- which you don't- so what would you expect? People watching indifferently hell breaking loose?
Ha! Not in a million years.
Our government is to laugh about and i have no problem stating this. But our government
doesn't sell guns.It just offers its ass to countries like yours.
Guess who's selling the guns to criminals? Not the USA. It's all the other countries in the world that are selling their former military weapons to shady people who are then selling the weapons on the black market to criminals.
This is just hilarious!
I thought this could be an intelligent exchanging of ideas and opinions but you obviously resent anybody who doesn't agree with you and tends to think otherwise - although it was you who asked for different options - and now you're offended, wrapped in your self righteousness .But you know what? self righteousness is what keeps a person aloof.
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(10/17 post - moved to this thread)
So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.
Education and enlightenment.
Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).
[Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?
This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go... :?
Wow! Absolutely tough subject!! I agree with every one of you on this subject. In a perfect worlds I feel one way but, alas, this is not a perfect world.It would be nice to get rid of all the guns, but man would still be violent....and its seems impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.
First and foremost for me its Peace, Love & Understanding.
Unfortunately, until people stop coveting their neighbors wife/cow/land/natural resources or violently imposing their beliefs on others we have to protect ourselves and those who can't protect themselves. It would be nice if wits alone would work and we could talk people out of their attack but if deadly force is used on me I will protect the life of my family with deadly force. And it takes preparation to be able to do that. whether its martial arts or firearms training. While I never WANT to have to use it it would be naive to think it can never happen. I think history has taught us this lesson quite well.
One of those contemplative questions I have always thought about was --- If you had a gun put to your head and the person holding it was "forcing" you to do something horrible what would you do. So many people say they were "forced" to do something as an excuse for bad behavior. Even with a gun to your head you still have a choice. I want to believe I'd have the strength to make the choice of sacrificing myself and not doing the heinous act even though it may have meant saving myself.
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Please people don't take others opinions personally. I see no finger pointing directed at any of us personally. Our our opinions are based on what we see, hear, read and what information we have access to. What we give weight to as TRUE and THE FACTS varies with what we use to support them. Statistics can be manipulated to show whatever we want to prove!! If you believe Michael Moore (and I do not - my opinion he is a master manipulator and inflamer) you can never use his "facts" to support your argument to one who doesn't believe in the truth of those facts.
I find most interesting in this conversation, as with other controversial ones we've had on the boards, is what sources people site. What people from different counties have as their sources and why and what they believe as fact, about themselves and about other people and other countries. we do not seem to have impeachable sources we all share and value. And we all find it hard to allow others to question those sources. Instead of digging in my heels and fighting I try to understand why and where the other person is coming from.
I learn more from the exchange of ideas and expanding my horizons and seeing other points of view rather than me becoming a flaming hot head trying to win an argument that can never be won.
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Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
EXCUSE ME??? I see the mud-slinging has begun. :roll: You know what? Even educated people murder others. Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women. The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women! Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.
I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.
You know, we ARE on the same wavelength, AoP, but we're on different sides of a viewpoint. The point was, someone equated less education with more violence. I used those examples to illustrate that less education does NOT mean greater chance for violence. Something you obviously understand, but you apparently didn't interpret my post as doing that.
This btw is a problem that won't be solved in the near future anywhere all over the world. It is a sad and unavoidable fact that jobs for low-educated people are becoming less and lesser day by day. This will lead to poverty which might lead to envy and both of them can lead to that kind of crime.
I agree, it won't be solved over night. Like I said, we ARE on the same wavelength. I don't think you realized that. ;) It is harder to get a job if you've only got a high school diploma. A person also gets less pay than one with a college education. Conversely, some places won't hire you if you have too much education. Granted, this is less common than people with less education not getting a job, but I think it only fair to point out both scenarios.
But again: I think that a major problem in this whole issue is that Americans are confronted with crime and violence differently from people in other countries which makes them believe they have to protect themselves that way.
To an extent, we are. All the past presidents, and all future presidents (at least until the US is no longer a major force in the world) face this problem: Some countries will test our leader to see if he is weak-willed. This testing is to see what they might be able to do to bring down what they see as a major world threat. Our current president wasn't aware enough when 9/11 happened, and now he's overcompensating. What we need is a strong leader who can guage best when force is needed, and when diplomacy is needed.
But this desire for protection isn't because we're afraid of being invaded, no! This desire for protection is protection from our own countrymen! That's what I've been going on about. Most violent criminals know that the average person does not carry a gun. They do use that to their advantage.
One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example.
No one is saying that guns should be easily available. In fact, if you've been paying attention, the argument that both Arthyron and I have presented is that everyone who wants to legally own a gun has to own a gun permit, which requries registration at the courthouse. From there, they run background checks on you. Then, the government is notified that you own a gun. Criminal offenders cannot legally own a gun. If you have a criminal record, you are by law prohibited from owning a gun.
But not everyone goes through the legal process to get a gun. The aforementioned people with criminal records know they can't have one legally, so they get them illegally.
One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example. Quite simple thought: A guy with a gun in his hand is standing behind you (or in front of you) and asks you to pass over your purse slowly. You try to reach the gun you hide under your jacket and pull it out and just in that moment the robber pulls the trigger.
Until everyone's allowed to have a loaded automatic assault rifle with them clearly visible, the chance that one might perhaps wear a weapon is hardly to be considered a scare-off.
And when it's not a scare-off, what's it useful for then? As written above: Do you really think you could pull out and slacken a weapon without the robber actually realising? That guy would surely have to have serious alcohol and drug problems if so. And even if you could pull it out and slacken it: What makes you believe you would actually shoot faster and aim better than the guy in front of you or in your back? It's for sure a nice thing to hit the target on a shooting range, but the situation isn't comparable in a situation like a robbery.
You're assuming that I think guns are fool-proof defenses. I really hope you don't think negatively of my intelligence, AoP. :P In situations where you have no opportunity to defend yourself, you don't have much choice but to hand over your purse/money/wallet and pray. But that's my point in bringing up concealed-carry laws. If the robber thinks you might have a weapon, is s/he still going to rob you when their own life might be at stake? They don't know who is packing heat and who isn't. Sometimes a person does NOT have time to defend themselves, but for some criminals, just the knowledge that they might get hurt is enough to deter them. Again, I recognise that this is not a foolproof measure of protection. But it is something to think about.
Also, you're only thinking of one situation. What if someone breaks into your house and they have a gun? You hear them coming, so you have time to load up your gun and get behind the bed/overturned table/tv/etc...and call out "I have a gun!" They might believe you and, as I said earlier, leave. Or, they might assume you're bluffing and come in anyway. You already have your gun at the ready. You've warned them, but they still come. From there, you are within your rights to protect yourself, your home and your family by shooting the person who chose to violate the safety of your home and put you at risk.
And while you might not hit them fatally (I'd rather NOT kill anyone), most homes are small enough that you will hit your target without having to take the time to sight down the gun.
Seriously, I never believed this whole pro-gun-argumentation. Again I refer to Moore who had a pretty good example in "Bowling...": Where do you draw the line? Should it be legal to own an A- or H-bomb for a civilian? Or a tank? Or C4? No? Why not? These can as well be used for self defense - against whomever.
Conversely, where do you draw the line for what people should not have? So suddenly no one in the US is allowed to legally own guns. Yet you still have all those violent criminal offenders who DO have guns. Firstly: You've now made criminals out of previously law-abiding citizens who don't want to give up their firearms, and secondly: you've now left a nation full of innocent people with less defense against home-invasion. Again, no defense is foolproof, but if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night when I'm home alone, I'd rather not be caught cowering like a scared rabbit.[/quote]
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Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
EXCUSE ME??? I see the mud-slinging has begun. :roll: You know what? Even educated people murder others. Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women. The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women! Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.
I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.
You know, we ARE on the same wavelength, AoP, but we're on different sides of a viewpoint. The point was, someone equated less education with more violence. I used those examples to illustrate that less education does NOT mean greater chance for violence. Something you obviously understand, but you apparently didn't interpret my post as doing that.
Education of course is NO CURE for metal illness. :roll: How large is the rate of psycho-killers? Only because they stand out with the number of victims and their presence in the media does not mean they are any kind of majority. They are not the criminals we are talking about.
And "education" does not mean nerds, technically or on whatever field skilled and highly educated people! I mean social and ethical education and enlightenment. From today's world this ideal seems pretty far away, granted, but a solid general education and some more focus on really important topics (that EXCLUDES any material things, commerce, holdings, but includes to know the basics and ideas behind these topics like capitalism & Co) will save people from falling into despair and no-way-out-feelings and the need to become criminal.
Remember the era of enlightenment - I think we need a major refresh and sequel. :)
...and to add this: I do not refer to US gun rights or whatsoever, I am talking about principals. I am talking about the fact that a gun can not do any good, n e v e r. A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.
And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.
And a last one to Arthyron and DJ: Please, calm down, it's nothing personal involved here. :) I really enjoy this discussion, because we are basically not fingerpointing or so, but covering a tough topic of global interest. And we have proven before that we can have heated discussions without the use of mud or such. ;)
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And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.
Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know. They are also hunting tools. ;) I used to go hunting alot. I got tired of freezing my ass off during the winter just waiting for a deer to come along, though. (Deer meat is a staple food in our home.)
But as for whether or not I'm willing to use it for the purpose of killing someone: Yes, IF it comes down to killing an attacker to save my own life, or the life of my loved ones. But God willing, I'll never be put in a situation where I'll have to find out if I truly would shoot anyone. The same goes for my self-defense training - I don't want to ever be in a situation where I may have to physically hurt someone else just to keep from getting raped. It's good to know self-defense techniques, but hopefully I won't ever have to use them.
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A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.
Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know.
I think Odin was talking about "killing" in general.
Guns were created for the one purpose of killing.
No matter if animal or man.
Just my two cents.
I'm reading all of this!
Can't find the right timing and right words to join, that's all.
Greetz
Prab
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A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.
Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know.
I think Odin was talking about "killing" in general.
Guns were created for the one purpose of killing.
No matter if animal or man.
Just my two cents.
I'm reading all of this!
Can't find the right timing and right words to join, that's all.
Greetz
Prab
Most people think only for people, but yeah, I gocha. :)
Well, there's alot that's been covered, and alot to comment on if you're just joining in, I'm sure. Just jump in when you find something that really gets you, I guess. ;)
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@Odin: No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.
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@AoM:I teach.I drag my sources from my pupils.Trust me when i say this, education means ethics and good manners.Pupils who are indifferent, have none of the above.Pupils who study, differ a lot. There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.
Btw,have you ever tried bow hunting? Like Ted Nudgent? It's much more fun than killing an animal with a gun - and much healthier.
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@Odin: No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.
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@AoM:I teach.I drag my sources from my pupils.Trust me when i say this, education means ethics and good manners.Pupils who are indifferent, have none of the above.Pupils who study, differ a lot. There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.
Btw,have you ever tried bow hunting? Like Ted Nudgent? It's much more fun than killing an animal with a gun - and much healthier.
You teach in a Greek school system. In Europe. So you're getting a European perspective on the USA. Hardly accurate unless any of your students have lived here. In fact, you yourself have never lived here. So I'll thank you to stop making gross generalizations about my country, or it's people.
We base our history through war and mayhem? Okay, So I can just assume Europe isn't rich in warfare and bloodshed then? How many wars has Europe had? It sure is convenient of you to ignore Europe's history of warfare and focus on ours.
And don't you DARE insinuate that I (or any other US citizen, for that matter) have forgotten my European bloodlines. I'm Swedish by blood and DAMNED proud of it too. But I am not Swedish by birth. And to claim that I am would be dishonest. In fact, MANY Americans love to talk about what European bloodlines they have. But then, you don't live here, so how could you know that?
"feel naked without a gun" EXCUSE ME? The only time I ever have a gun on me is when I'm at the shooting range. It's illegal in Illinois to carry concealed weapons unless you're a police officer. I go about my day to day life without any official weapons.
As for the bow hunting question:
I'm not strong enough to pull the required weight for compound-bow hunting.
Which brings me to my next point: A bow an arrow is a weapon. Just like a gun is a weapon. Both were made for the express purpose of killing. So why is bow and arrow okay, but guns are not?
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I'm afraid i wasn't joking. I have watched many of his documentaries and he doesn't seem fraudulent to me. And what on earth would he be hiding? and from whom? Documentaries are based on facts and his annoyed too many people , didn't they? I haven't seen anybody taking the stand and contradicting any of his documentaries.If you can prove otherwise, please do so.
Wow, then you are just about the most gullible person on earth if you can trust in what Michael Moore has to say. Just google for something like "Michael Moore rebuttal." There's hundreds of websites, counter documentaries, and statistics to prove him wrong. In Fahrenheit 9/11 alone, there were over 50 direct falsehoods. I honestly don't know how you can miss the incredulity of his arguments, his alterior motives, his general dishonesty. He hates everything to do with traditional America, and wants nothing more than for socialism to reign. I'm busy working on things (being a college student is hectic), so I don't have time to dig up all the counter-arguments to his propaganda, but you're quite capable of using google yourself. Go for it.
Sorry Arthyron, i do not see it that way.As i said, produced guns need to be sold.Sooner or later they come to the hands of those you do not want to own one.Weapon industries don't mind that.It's trade after all, isn't it? But people should care.What if technology made weapons safer to the user? Can it make weapons safer for the potential victim?
I guess not.That's not the point in making weapons , is it?
Yeah, and what if they're sold to law-abiding citizens? The people that FOLLOW RULES, the people that USE GUNS CORRECTLY, other than the event that their guns are stolen, are not going to end up with their guns going to criminals. The guns that end up on the black market are acquired by criminals, stolen, or sold by unscrupulous military or former military pesonnel. Once again, the people who use guns correctly, and those that produce them for people who use them correctly do not have guns that end up in the hands of criminals.
Martial arts do make a difference.I didn't have the chance to take a course but i had a friend who used to be an instructor/soldier in the Foreign Legion and who taught me how to kill a person with my two bare hands in 6 seconds. But,i guess it's easier to use a gun rather than sweating in order to make a weapon out of your body.
I don't like the fact that guns are used instead of hand to hand combat any more than you do. If that were the case, I'd have a HUGE advantage over 90% of the world's population. But the FACT of the matter is that criminals don't care about honor. They want what works. Weapons work, and guns are the best weapons, so they use them. They're quick, they're easy, they're concealable. As long as criminals have guns, citizens should be able to as well in order to even out the odds. If you don't WANT to carry a gun, fine, don't. But don't tell me I can't. As long as the US Constitution exists, I will be able to own a gun for the protection of myself and my family. And if I don't have a gun (which I rarely do, I dont' even carry one on me, because my city is a relatively save one), fine. I can kill most people with my bare hands anyway. And I'd like to see you try this "6 second kill" technique on a guy like me. You'd get your butt handed to you. All those little tricks are nonsense. All that matters in a real fight is experience, toughness, resourcefulness, and a little bit of luck. If you try martial arts moves in a real fight you will lose. If you've ever watched a martial artist in a REAL fight, if they win, it's not because of martial arts. Watch a video sometime of real fights. I guarantee you won't see stances and complex hand movements and structured forms. You'll see flailing arms, legs, and 90% of the time they'll end up on the ground rolling around with each other. That's the reality of fighting.
@Arthyron and AoM: http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/ill-o14.shtml
and there's more if you don't like the socialist web page.
And @AoM, this is the way i feel about things and not a mud slide.
Yeah, because a Socialist news site is certainly reliable when it comes to statistics concerning the bastion of Capitalism. That article is complete nonsense. Notice they don't show any references for their statistics. They might as well be making them up at random. Show me a credible source for once.
Yes, it does.There are always exceptions to the rule.But the rule still remains the same.
And since when was this a rule. How come I wasn't told about this "rule" of your's? Once again, making claims without backing it up with real facts. Basically, it's my word vs. your's, and so far your credibility as far as facts and statistics has been about 0.
My dear Arthyron, EVERYTHING is politics.Sooner or later you'll realise it.
There's no hidden agenda.Why should there be one? I speak my mind freely, cause that's what i was taught to do.I have no problem sticking to my country if you stick to yours- which you don't- so what would you expect? People watching indifferently hell breaking loose?
Ha! Not in a million years.
Our government is to laugh about and i have no problem stating this. But our government
doesn't sell guns.It just offers its ass to countries like yours.
No, this was a topic of discussion about firearms, and you had to throw in your opinions on wars and country invasions and all that BS. That's the real issue here. You're just another one of those ignorant Europeans (thankfully i know some level-headed Europeans that aren't so quick to judge) who jumps on the Anti-USA bandwagon because it's what everyone else is doing. You have no concept of what my nation is like, and it's amazing to see you say things like "if you stick to your's, but you don't." Let me tell you something: I AM NOT MY GOVERNMENT'S MILITARY. I didn't vote to go to Iraq, Congress did. If you don't like it fine, a lot of US don't like it either, but that's what the government decided to do. I WAS sticking to my country, but then the Europeans couldn't keep their mouths shut, and had to go spewing their anti-firearm rhetoric. We are different countries. What works for you does not neccesarily work for us and vice versa. I never asked you to buy or carry a gun, so I'll be damned if I'm gonna let you sit there and tell me why I shouldn't when the facts clearly prove you wrong. I was fine sticking to my country, but YOU guys are the ones that had to open your mouth about things which you don't even know anything about (firearms, firearms as they pertain to the average United States citizen, Firearm safety, etc) If you don't want trouble with me, then don't start it. I don't tell you how to run things in wherever the heck it is you're from, so don't tell me what i should/should not do in my own country. And once again, to reiterate: I AM NOT MY GOVERNMENT'S MILITARY. So stop putting all your anti-war biases on me. I didn't give the order to invade Iraq. My country's actions abroad have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, so keep your international politics to yourself.
This is just hilarious!
I thought this could be an intelligent exchanging of ideas and opinions but you obviously resent anybody who doesn't agree with you and tends to think otherwise - although it was you who asked for different options - and now you're offended, wrapped in your self righteousness .But you know what? self righteousness is what keeps a person aloof.
I fail to see where I asked for your opinion. I could care less what you have to say regarding my nation. You do not live in the United States. You have not lived among our people, walked our streets, so you are in NO place to judge us. Yes, I obviously just abandon all logic and reason and resent you all. :roll: That's why I presented facts and logical arguments to back up what i have to say, instead of spewing Socalist rhetoric and citing such wonderful, credible sources like Michael Moore. Please, that's just absurd. How am I being self-righteous? Show me an example. You can sit there and try and insult me all you want, but it's all irrelavent if you can't give an example of these supposed traits I carry. I've been called a right wing conservative fundamentalist wacko in some forums. No matter what you call me, if you can't back up your accusations, then they're useless. Do you even know what self-righteousness is? Hmm? Not once did I suggest my country was better than anyone else's. Not once did I claim myself superior to anyone else (other than in body size). Not once did I even suggest that my way is the superior way. I'm speaking PURELY about America, and American facts and figures. As I said, I could care less about how things are run in your country, because that works for you. But that won't neccesarily do the job for my country.
...and to add this: I do not refer to US gun rights or whatsoever, I am talking about principals. I am talking about the fact that a gun can not do any good, n e v e r. A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.
Oh, have you ever done any recreational shooting? Didn't think so. Clearly you've never been to a shooting range or a competition. Guns are GREAT for recreation if people use them with the proper precautions and safety measures. For instance, my brother got married back in May. For his bachelor party (where all the men in the family and a few friends go out or do things together without the women), we went to a shooting range and got to shoot all kinds of guns at targets. We got to fire full automatic machine guns and all sorts of neat things. In that instance, the gun created enjoyment, fun, bonding between the men, as well as a memory that will last a lifetime. A gun doesn't have to always be used to kill a person or an animal.
So if a woman is approached by a man on the street, and he pulls out a knife and threatens her, and she pulls out a gun, and he runs away, you're telling me that is not a good thing? I fail to see how that's anything but a good thing. So clearly, good CAN come from guns if they're used appropriately.
And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.
I agree. But, there are many people (myself included) who WOULD use a gun if neccesary. If someone is threatening my life or the life of someone I love (especially in the second case), I would do anything neccesary to stop them, and that includes killing them if that's what needs to be done.
And a last one to Arthyron and DJ: Please, calm down, it's nothing personal involved here. Smile I really enjoy this discussion, because we are basically not fingerpointing or so, but covering a tough topic of global interest. And we have proven before that we can have heated discussions without the use of mud or such.
I never lose my composure on the internet. The only things that can drive me to anger are endangering my family/friends/loved ones, abusing your power, and deliberate violations of chivalry. It's nearly impossible to do those things online, so you don't have to worry about me getting angry. ;) But cleary ms. Jane doesn't feel the same. Since apparently, according to her we aren't having a logical discussion.
No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.
This paragraphis chock full of inconsistencies, and deliberate and obvious biases. I mean you start off with "yeah, no need for mudslinging." But what did you do earlier? Oh right, you called me self-righteous and blind. So much for that little bit of hypocrisy. First off, "make their own history through war and mayhem." That's an ignorant statement. Every nation, your's included, had made it's history through war and mayhem. No nation is free of this ideal, because war and conflict are in humanity's nature. So don't you dare insinuate that America is the only nation that has ever been involved in war. Keep in mind the many wars in which we did good. If it was not for our involvement in WW2, Europe might have been overrun by the Third Reich. But as I said, this discussion has nothing to do with WARS, so shut up about foreign policies and wars, they have nothing to do with the discussion of civilian firearm usage. And as I said earlier, regardless of how you feel about my country's actions in the Middle East, I'm not the one over there. I didn't ever tell anyone to go over there. So stop projecting my government's actions on me. I didn't make that decision. Then there's "people who feel naked without a gun." I don't feel naked without a gun at all. I've never carried one in public. The most public place I've had a gun with me is when my friends and I were in the woods and forests. This just goes to prove your biases against the US citizens, insinuating that we're all packing heat everywhere we go. That just goes to show you're blinded by stereotypes. I have guns in my house, but I don't take them with me. As I said, I live in a relatively safe city, and seldom do I run into anything, much less anything I can't take care of with my bare hands. I didn't stick my nose anywhere. If anything, it was other Europeans who were the ones who started with the anti-gun rhetoric. Instead of voicing your political concerns, you could have just realized that America is different from you, and thought "well, guns are more common there because their culture is different, so I don't need to say anyting or place my nation's cultural restrictions on them." But no, you chose to argue why guns are bad. You're in a box of your own making. Lastly, only some of my ancestors were European. Some of them were Native Americans as well. And once again, my ancestry has NOTHING to do with the argument at hand, so drop the pretentious, irrelavent nonsense and stick to the topic at hand.
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And I'd like to see you try this "6 second kill" technique on a guy like me. You'd get your butt handed to you. All those little tricks are nonsense.
Well, as a matter of fact,i practiced on a couple of guys like you.I couldn't believe it would work, but it did. It's not nonsense.
yeah, because a Socialist news site is certainly reliable when it comes to statistics concerning the bastion of Capitalism. That article is complete nonsense. Notice they don't show any references for their statistics. They might as well be making them up at random. Show me a credible source for once.
Haha what was i thinking? You finding me or the article credible? :roll: Btw, i'm not a socialist, at least not in the way you regard socialists.
First of all,i never told you not to use guns.Go ahead, use all the guns you want.
The fact you don't seem to comprehend is that you haven't had an actual war going on in your country (save me from a speech regarding the civil war or Pearl Harbor) It feels good to fight in other countries and not facing actual danger.It feels good to destroy while you remain intact.
Europe has suffered a lot.My country suffered a lot. That's why we're so against guns and war.We know what it's like.
But hey! don't even try to compare my country and the wars we fought through the time
with your country's wars.My country has been subjected to a 1000 years occupation.The Romans, the Francs,the Turks,the Bulgarians,the Italians, the Germans...and before all that it was the Persians.Don't get me started man...
Have you ever heard about the dictatorship in Hellas? It was the Americans who helped the generals impose it upon my people.I was there.I don't expect you to accept this, but it's history, it is the truth no matter what you say or do.And the only reason i mention this is just to show that you always stick your noses where you shouldn't.Yugoslavia is a recent example.Your government deciding about the Makedonian issue is another.This has nothing to do with you,so you butt out.Iraq is the least of my concerns, believe me.
Now maybe you see things from where i stand.I believe i'm entitled to feel pissed off.
.
Me calling you names? ..Ignorant, gullible,inconsistent,deliberately and obviously biased ,a hypocrit,telling me to shut up.. wasn't you the one who addressed to me in such a way?
I fail to see where I asked for your opinion.
So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative
This is where you asked for alternatives and opinions.I didn't know i wasn't included.
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You teach in a Greek school system. In Europe. So you're getting a European perspective on the USA. Hardly accurate unless any of your students have lived here. In fact, you yourself have never lived here. So I'll thank you to stop making gross generalizations about my country, or it's people.
Exactly as you're getting an American perspective on Europe.Gross generalizations about your country and its people? What have you been doing here?
As for the bow hunting question:
I'm not strong enough to pull the required weight for compound-bow hunting.
Which brings me to my next point: A bow an arrow is a weapon. Just like a gun is a weapon. Both were made for the express purpose of killing. So why is bow and arrow okay, but guns are not?
Read your post, the answer is obvious..
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There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.
:wink:
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Well, as a matter of fact,i practiced on a couple of guys like you.I couldn't believe it would work, but it did. It's not nonsense.
So you killed them?! :p Notice the word you used: PRACTICE. You've never used it in a real application. I'd like to see you try it on someone when they're trying to do horrible things to you, in the thick of a fight for your life when you can't think and you're acting purely on reflex and adrenaline. All the "practicing" a move is worthless when you're in a real situation. All those "guys like me" that let you do that to them LET you do that to them. It's a big difference when the guy's got you in an arm-lock or a bear hug. I'm still skeptical on any move that any person can use to drop someone in 6 seconds. If it was that easy, everyone would use it, especially professional martial artists and fighters like in the UFC or any number of the fighting organizations around the world.
Haha what was i thinking? You finding me or the article credible? :roll: Btw, i'm not a socialist, at least not in the way you regard socialists.
Then don't quote socialist websites in regards to a capitalist society. It's pretty much common sense.
First of all,i never told you not to use guns.Go ahead, use all the guns you want.
The fact you don't seem to comprehend is that you haven't had an actual war going on in your country (save me from a speech regarding the civil war or Pearl Harbor) It feels good to fight in other countries and not facing actual danger.It feels good to destroy while you remain intact.
What does the fact that my nation's government has done a good job of keeping my country (and many other countries) safe have to do with anything? We've remained safe because our country's government does its job well. I fail to see why you find this a negative aspect. And once again, you're trying to put words in my mouth and attribute the actions of my nation's military to ME. Get it through your thick skull that I am not part of my nation's military. I don't like fighting in other countries, I don't like that soldiers have to kill people, I don't like that they destroy lives. Sometimes wars MUST be fought. Regardless of whether or not you believe the current war should be fought, the people who are fighting clearly believe that they need to be. Who are you to judge them? And yes, this is the ideal situation in a war, but keep in mind Al Qaeda hit us first, sister. None of us felt good on September 11, 2001. One of my friends lost her Uncle in that attack. You talk so much about how my country is and how my country works, when you CLEARLY have no concept of the reality of my country at all. Do us all a favor and stop talking about something you clearly have no concept of. And seriously, shut up about wars and countries and all that nonsense. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you want to bitch about America's foreign policy, create a new thread. That's not what this one is about.
Europe has suffered a lot.My country suffered a lot. That's why we're so against guns and war.We know what it's like.
BS. When have you EVER faced a war. When have you ever had bullets whizzing past your head or had to hide from armed gunmen? Hmm? That's like the African Americans complaing about slavery when none of them have ever been slaves. You are being extremely pretentious acting like your country is the only one that's ever experienced war. What about the Revolutionary War, what about the Spanish American War? What about the French Indian War? What about the Civil War? All of them were fought on American soil in times far more recent than most of the wars that affected your nation. We know what war is like too, and that's exactly why we keep our guns. Did it ever occur to you that crap like that doesn't happen in our nation because our civilians are protected beyond what the police are able to offer?
But hey! don't even try to compare my country and the wars we fought through the time
with your country's wars.My country has been subjected to a 1000 years occupation.The Romans, the Francs,the Turks,the Bulgarians,the Italians, the Germans...and before all that it was the Persians.Don't get me started man...
Don't get ME started. You forget that before we were Americans, we were many other things. Let's start with the Native Americans. The French, the Spanish, the English, many more European nations subjugated, tortured, killed, maimed, and destroyed my people, forcing them to live on small reservatory lands which are stricken with poverty and sickness and crime. The Irish were raided by the vikings and many other nations for hundreds of years being raped, pillaged, and slaughtered. Not to menion the horrible famine that Ireland was struck with, which is the main cause of migration and immigration of the Irish people. The Scottish were subjugated by the Roman Empire just as long as Greece was, and its people treated FAR worse. Eventually they built a wall stretching across the northern part of Britain (Hadrian's wall) to keep the Scots (they were called the Picts then) out. The only part of my ancestry that hasn't had the crap kicked out of them are the Norwegians. But thanks to unscrupulous missionaries, their entire culture was made criminal and nearly wiped out, for the sake of European Catholicism. Sure Greece has had it's problems, but given my diverse heritage, I've got you beat if you wanna play that game. But I'd rather not get into a pissing contest, I'll save you the same of defeat.
Have you ever heard about the dictatorship in Hellas? It was the Americans who helped the generals impose it upon my people.I was there.I don't expect you to accept this, but it's history, it is the truth no matter what you say or do.And the only reason i mention this is just to show that you always stick your noses where you shouldn't.Yugoslavia is a recent example.Your government deciding about the Makedonian issue is another.This has nothing to do with you,so you butt out.Iraq is the least of my concerns, believe me.
Now maybe you see things from where i stand.I believe i'm entitled to feel pissed off.
.
You're telling ME to butt out. Why are you still bitching and moaning about things saying "you you you you" and then say "this has nothing to do with you?" Clearly I've shown that I'm not involved in any of those things. But regardless of it all. What the heck is your problem, why can't you keep your bitter political problems quiet? They don't MATTER here. This isn't about international relations, this is about guns, in the united states. As I said, if you want to whine about politics, you're welcome to make a new thread, but keep your whining elsewhere. It has no place here. And for pete sake, get it through your head that I'm not responsible for the crap my country has done in the past and stop referring to me as my country. I am not my country. I am not my country's military. I am not my country's government. Deal with it.
Me calling you names? ..Ignorant, gullible,inconsistent,deliberately and obviously biased ,a hypocrit,telling me to shut up.. wasn't you the one who addressed to me in such a way?
The difference is, you claimed you hadn't done any "name calling", which is clearly not the case. I don't call people things that don't make logical sense. Everything I said had a logical component backing it up. I'm still waiting for logical evidence of my supposed "self righteousness" you were rambling about. See the difference? My words made sense, and were used in the correct context due to things you said, which I pointed out. Your words were hollow attempts at insults, because you ran out of logical reasons and evidence to combat my arguments, and couldn't even back up your insults. There's the difference.
I fail to see where I asked for your opinion.
So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative
This is where you asked for alternatives and opinions.I didn't know i wasn't included.[/quote]
I didn't ask for opinions on random things that have nothing to do with guns. I asked for other plausible solutions to the gun problem. I have yet to see you offer up any jewels of wisdom other than neo-socialist, anti USA political nonsense, and bitter, insipid ramblings. Come back when you have something worthwhile to say, and evidence to back it up.
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I'm getting about tired of the whole debate. My parting comment is simply going to be this:
What works for Euorpe will not necissarily work for the USA. Guns are not a guarantee of safety, but they are also not a guarantee of death. Guns or no, there are many great things about the USA, just as there are many great things about Europe. BOTH the US and Europe have histories seeped in bloodshed. Both have their shair of ethnocentric people. Similarities and differences abound. It's recognising and accepting BOTH similarities and differences that will solve the current mess that this thread has become.
Provided it doesn't get locked first.
And sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree.
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Well put, AoM, thanks. :)
So, to get back to my recent request, if the two of you (Arthyron, Dorian Jane) want to continue on the details of your internal discussion, please take it to PM or e-mail. It's not that productive for the public here anymore, sorry.
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Well put, AoM, thanks. :)
So, to get back to my recent request, if the two of you (Arthyron, Dorian Jane) want to continue on the details of your internal discussion, please take it to PM or e-mail. It's not that productive for the public here anymore, sorry.
Not an issue with me. I'm trying to get her to stop talking about the "internal discussion" of international foreign policy/wars/American Government and get back to the topic at hand. But yeah, as long as she doesn't say any more about that stuff (or makes a new thread for it) I'm fine with leaving it as it is.