Bleeding4Metal Forum
Zombies => Falconer => Thema gestartet von: sed_awk am September 11, 2006, 05:22:58 Vormittag
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I found some of the words to the new Falconer CD on-line. Land of the Knave sounds pretty much like they are calling all Americans dishonest and not to be trusted; especially since there are so many inferences to the U.S.
The last 2 lines are a rip on "America the Beautiful." And the "Home of the Brave"
There are other references in the song that point to American symbols of government.
If this is true, its going to be hard for me to put my $$$ into an CD or a band that calls all Americans knaves. At that point they're not much different from the jackasses that flew planes into our buildings. I really do hope I'm wrong on this account because I really enjoy Falconers music. There are a lot of good and bad people no matter where you go in this world.
For those that don't know this, most Americans are just like everyone else in this world; just trying to get by and do what is right by their family. They go to work, are mostly under paid, work and average of 60 hours a week, and are one to two months away from becoming homeless. We pay the highest cost for medical care; this is evident by our infant mortality rate alone which is one of the bottom 25 of developed countries. Our social security system is in danger of falling apart and most people can't afford to save for their retirement. So, for all of those folks that think life here in the U.S is like Hollywood party, guess again.
If I had my way, this money that we're spending on war should be redirected into alternative fuel research. We (yes those stupid/uneducated Americans) are really close to implementing the mass production of bio-fuels (diesel fuel made from corn).
If we can do this we'll be putting to work a lot of farmers in this country, and perhaps then the role of feeding and medicating the world for free can be passed on to our European friends. I’ll tell you it’s a real slap in the face when we have to pay 3 to 5 times more for the same medication than everyone else does. So, if you don’t have a good job with good insurance you go without, and we have a lot of people in this country going without. And even if you do have good insurance you still go without.
Don't get me wrong, I've lived in Europe for 3 years and I dearly love European culture and its people. But over the last few years, I think we've been getting an unfair rap from those that I really would like to consider our friends. If you weren’t here for the Trade Center disaster then you won’t understand. I’m actually glad that GWB was in office then, because if it had been me Afghanistan would be a very large sheet of glass right now. Now in retrospect that would have been disastrous, but that is how deeply this hit some Americans, including myself. 9/11 can never happen again, and I don’t care what needs to be done to keep it form happening again. It can never happen again. I don’t ever want to turn on the TV on my first day of vacation and see what I saw on television that morning. My aunt by the way was also in that building.
Sorry for the soap box, but this song kicked off a lot of suppressed emotions in me.
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I found some of the words to the new Falconer CD on-line.
Can you post a link? It'd be interesting to read the lyrics.
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I have tried but didn't find any of the lyrics online. Maybe he downloaded the album. :roll:
sed_awk: I only know the title of the song so I cannot comment on the lyrics, but I have also wondered whether "Home of the Knave" might be a reference to "Home of the Brave". Maybe Stefan can shed some light on this. And provide us with some much needed lyrics.
I sympathise with your situation and appreciate the diversity of American culture and the general good nature of you folks, I'm not your stereotype European America-basher either.
But please do not say things like "At that point they're not much different from the jackasses that flew planes into our buildings" because that is just the kind of black and white "good America vs. evil world and if you don't support us you're with the enemy" crap that nurtures a lot of the criticism that you are complaining about. I can't criticise the US government because otherwise I'm a terrorist? What the %&$§? Is this the O'Reilly Factor for metalheads?
I love America, I even have the flag, something I have to justify every time someone enters my room, because bashing America is simply "in" these days in Europe. It's annoying but I'll never remove it from the wall.
I had mixed feelings about the Iraq war, meaning that I was one of few Europeans who were not strictly against it, but please. Even if "Home of the Knave" is a take on modern-day American government, Falconer have every right to say something relevant about an idiot who got to run daddy's company and sent hundreds of good men and women to their doom on the other side of the world to find wmd's that don't exist and get us some more of them oil barrels (insert Jon Stewart's GWB laugh here).
Uhm... Stefan? :lol:
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But please do not say things like "At that point they're not much different from the jackasses that flew planes into our buildings" because that is just the kind of black and white "good America vs. evil world and if you don't support us you're with the enemy" crap that nurtures a lot of the criticism that you are complaining about. I can't criticise the US government because otherwise I'm a terrorist? What the %&$§? Is this the O'Reilly Factor for metalheads?
Exactly my thoughts.
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If this is true, its going to be hard for me to put my $$$ into an CD or a band that calls all Americans knaves. At that point they're not much different from the jackasses that flew planes into our buildings. I really do hope I'm wrong on this account because I really enjoy Falconers music. There are a lot of good and bad people no matter where you go in this world.
Maybe you should take it easy right there, mister. It's clear the USA hast cost Europe so much in history and I as a Dane cannot sympathise with the USA in any way, but saying that we as europeans, who are critical towards your faulty nation, are nothing better than some islamic fools, is stupid.
I too would like to see those lyrics!
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This discussion could get very interesting.
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I'll see if I can find the lyrics when time permits. Some response to some of the comments that I've seen so far.
1) I was commented in reference to the 9/11 hijackers that when people judge one nation as a whole based on one man that is wrong.
2) I would like to know what the Americans have cost the Danes. Please enumerate so I can better understand. Otherwise, it comes across as a baseless comment. The one item of truth in that statement is that the U.S is an imperfect nation as I illustrated in my original post. We have a lot of problems over here that we need to work on. So who was it that said we were a perfect nation. It certainly wasn't me, and I don't think that the majority of Americans think that either. I’m sorry if America didn’t/hasn’t lived up to the worlds expectations. We are people just like everyone else with the same problems and challenges that every society has to work through. As I said before, what you see in the movies is the farthest thing from what America really is or about.
3) Here are some of the lyrics. OK we get who the reference of who the king is supposed to be in this song. The blindfold and sword are symbols of the American justice system.
Once upon a time there was a restless king in charge
What could he contribute to write some history?
So on he marched for reasons quite obscure.
With a blindfold and sword, come deliver us from evil
Great savior of all, so honest and brave. Your land of the free is the home of the knave.
Great savior of all, so honest and brave. Your land of the free is the home of the knave.
Echoes of crusaders were heard across the world.
As he fought against the legions sent from Hell.
Shadows of the templers have yet to gather fact
Creeds are cast aside determination still in tact.
With a bindfold and sword, come deliver us from evil
Great savior of all, so honest and brave. Your land of the free is the home of the knave.
Great savior of all, so honest and brave. Your land of the free is the home of the knave.
4) I never said that people should have the right to say what they think about a government, or even a certain man in government. But trust me, most of what you see on Television and the news is a distortion of the truth. I can say this with some credibility because I've seen it in practice. Having sat in government for 2 years, I can say it is one of the hardest things I've ever done. Someone thinks they hear you say something, or misinterprets you statements and sooner than later it’s all over the news; a very gross distortion of fact and the farthest thing from the truth. Sometimes you don't have a fair opportunity to rebut yourself so you have no choice to sit and take the abuse. On top of that your faced with situations were you have to make decisions without all the facts in hand. But you have to make those decisions now with the information you have because there is a statutory time frame that is placed on you do not have the option of waiting until all the information has come in. So instead, you go with your gut and stay away at night praying to God that you took the right path. So before you rush to cast stones, think about who your throwing those stones at and why. I encourage everyone to run and hold a seat of government. It will dramatically change your views on life, the world and the people in it. Sabatini couldn't have been more correct when he said "Hypocrisy is the Keynote of humanity."
So, I get the songs about George W. Bush and the war in Iraq. I’m OK with that. It’s OK to be critical of government, and we should be critical of government. It’s healthy to be critical of government. I am concerned with the “crusade” remark because it is the same reference used by the Arab world toward the US. Trust me; most Americans really have no interest in controlling the world. We’re too busy trying to figure out how we are going to get our kids out the door to school and keep a paycheck coming into the house, which is getting harder these days because most of the good paying jobs are flying overseas. With both parents having to work to keep the household afloat we generally don’t get the important time that is necessary to keep a family intact. Most people concentrate on family time whenever they have an open opportunity. It certainly spent plottnig about conquering or spreading our belief systems across the globe. It couldn’t be farther from the fact.
My other concern is that this song is implying that all Americans are knaves. Once again; you move into dangerous territory when you typecast a group of people in a single description, especially when that description is of someone who is dishonest and cannot be trusted. Most Americans would give the shirt of their backs to someone that needed it.
Again, I have plans to still purchase the CD, if in fact it is my misinterpretation of the lyrics. It is on my wish list to be sent the day it comes out. I won’t however, buy into an album that promotes such a negative typecast over any group of peoples, whether they be American, Dane, French, or Martian. Not going to happen. I have better things to do with my hard earned and scarce $$$$.
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I
I would like to know what the Americans have cost the Danes. Please enumerate so I can better understand. Otherwise, it comes across as a baseless comment. The one item of truth in that statement is that the U.S is an imperfect nation as I illustrated in my original post. We have a lot of problems over here that we need to work on. So who was it that said we were a perfect nation. It certainly wasn't me, and I don't think that the majority of Americans think that either. I’m sorry if America didn’t/hasn’t lived up to the worlds expectations. We are people just like everyone else with the same problems and challenges that every society has to work through. As I said before, what you see in the movies is the farthest thing from what America really is or about.
My other concern is that this song is implying that all Americans are knaves. Once again; you move into dangerous territory when you typecast a group of people in a single description, especially when that description is of someone who is dishonest and cannot be trusted. Most Americans would give the shirt of their backs to someone that needed it.
That is the typical sentimental crap you would expect from any proud American as yourself, but in fact nobody cares about how upright, honest and hardworking citizen the average American is, when it is clear how much grief and pain, you have cost the world in the very short history of your stolen land. And even though you believe Europe owes you anything for salvaging democracy and freeing us from nazi Germany or anything else, I'm beginning to believe Hitler was an amateur when it comes to destroy cultures and peoples compared to you. Your current agenda and idea of getting democracy to the poor and naive souls of the Middle East is far from new and the damaged you've caused by inflicting your culture, if you can even call i a culture, upon our European and northern countries is extreme.
So even if the lyrics are anti-american, which I in fact don't believe they are, I think they're only a play of words, you as an American have nothing to than to accept that is the general attitude towards your country in Europe. Your filthy dollars are better spent somewhere else.
By the way, happy holidays!
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Oh sorry: I misread. I'm still curious about how much the U.S has cost Europe as a whole. Still please enumerate. I'd like to encourage you to take a visit to some of the National cemeteries that are in France and Luxemburg. I've been there. Over 6,000 American lives were lost on the first day the Americans stormed Normandy to push back the Nazi's. Your beaches and soil are stained with American blood. So the next time you think about what the U.S has cost Europe think about how many American children grew up without fathers so people can have the right to demonize the very people, many of whom grew up with out fathers, so Europe could be liberated from the Nazis. Perhaps the root cause of some of our (not all) problems root to the loss of so many American fathers on European, Japanese and Philippine soil. I wonder at times what would have happened if we had stayed out of Europe in the mid 1940’s. Would the people have overthrown the regime like they did during the French Revolution? How long would it have taken? What would U.S policy be like today if we did? Would the U.S be in Iraq today if the original policy of American Isolation was broken in the mid 40’s? I don’t think that there are really any correct or right answers, but they are still thoughts that are worth discussing and churning over.
So for those that think that 1940 was a long time ago, it really wasn’t. My Dad fought in WW2 and is still alive and kicking today. How he made it out amazes me. So for me, it’s only a generation away.
Look, my intent for this post was never to get into a name calling or a bickering back and forth. But recently I have seen things in the news and in this song that concern me. If anything it has been good for offering up some level of sane and civil discussion.
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Well well, it seems like this song stirred up some feelings. Just as I knew it would.
I don´t hate americans, in fact a part of me felt good to know that the regime in Iraq got their asses kicked. The invasion of Afganistan is obviously something I couldn't critizise at the moment it happened because of the facts that led up to it.
On the other hand.
The words "defend our freedom" has on occasions been used by the politicians when the nation's freedom never were at stake. It's just a good way to get the people on your side.
Bush knew right before the invasion of Iraq that there were no missiles (the official reason for the invasion) but at that time his mind was already set. So what were the real reasons?
I just imagine how it would feel to have my relatives killed cause of lies fed from my leaders.
Some americans said that they helped the people of Iraq from an evil dictator, that's right. In that case there are more dictators in the world, maybe not owners of oil fields but what would that have to do with the good cause.
I can't deny that the US government has done alot of good to in history but the lyric was just about on specific event. WWII is maybe the best example of the good deeds.
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jakob_hasse - Glad to see you’re an expert at early American history, or American history in general. Have you ever been to the US? My guess is no. Personally, I've been to 17 different countries on 3 different continents. Next year, I'll be going to China for 2 weeks so that will be 18 different countries on 4 different continents. So, while I'm not an expert, I have at least some basis, or foundation, to speak from other than a few hate-mongering influences.
You seem really angry; if you don't learn how to manage that it will consume you and then destroy you as a person. I suggest reading a book called Scaramouch by Raphael Sabatini. Other than being a great read, there is a really good lesson exposed at the end of the book. But, you seem to be like I was when I was younger. Angry at the world, and no understanding of why or what I was angry about. But you move off dismissing this recommendation as being from a “Proud and Arrogant American.” I challenge you to reflect on my words in 15 years. Maybe then you will understand. The world is a complicated, disgusting and ironically beautiful place. It would be a much better place if we can discuss our issues in an open forum in a civil and respectful manor. This way we understand each others positions and grow to be better people as a whole. But, my guess is you’ll dismiss that notion as well with anger. So I guess it’s a mute point carrying this any further.
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I am absolutely certain that the whole song is an allusion to Bush, his administration and illegal unilateral warfare.
However, the lyrics do by no means imply that ALL Americans are knaves. It says "Home of the Knave" (singular), not "knaves". So the knave might very well be the king (Bush) who is also repeatedly refered to in the song.
And the crusaders do not nessecarily mean "all" Americans either, they probably only refer to the soldiers.
And in the way crusaders they are because they invade sovereign nations for ideological reasons. I have great respect for the American military, though, because the soldiers are brave souls who do not choose to go to war, they do as they are told by their superiors. And I as a German am very grateful for the liberation of my country, although we also had millions of children who had to grew up without a father, like my grandma. Still, the Nazis needed to be wiped out and the US saved everone's asses, that's for sure.
Nevertheless - Geroge Bush is a retard, he is severely damaging the reputation of America in the world that will take a long time to heal and he is largely responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents. A stupid crusader. The lyrics speak the truth, if my interpretation is correct.
Oh and where did you get the lyrics? :wink:
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I agree with you Stefan. The US have done some really good things. WWII was a very good example.
The interesting fact about the invasion of Afghanistan is that not very long ago the Talibans were trained by the US military (or more appropriate - CIA) as a weapon (or more appropriate - a tool) against Russia. Smart move. Just too bad for the USA (including the whole bleedin' world, of course) that they pissed their splendid tool off.
And this does NOT mean that I think terrorism is ok by any way. I'ts awful and horrible. Just as horrible as the bombs over Beirut's civilians, the Hiroshima bomb or the ethnical slaughters in Rwanda.
I just think that it's important to pull the brakes sometimes and think about what's (or who's) feeding the different sides' hatred against the other.
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One thing I have to add is that the movie "911 fahrenheit" inspired me to the lyric.
Not as good as "Bowling for Columbine" but still great.
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*lyrics*
I still wonder what site has the lyrics, but anyway.
What I like about Falconer's lyrics is that -although they do apply to current events- they are written in a way that can be seen as universal themes. Many times events similar to the ones descibed in that song have happened.
Curiously enough, if you take the words within the context, knave used to mean servant, or humble person. In that way, it can be easily seen that while kings have done their holy quests, it is the people who have had to endure the consequences of their actions. Time and time again has history proven this.
Genghis Khan believed that he was meant to conquer the whole world. Many ancient european kings belived that they had been anointed as such by divine command. And nowadays even some of the leaders of islamic organizations believe that they are doing a holy job by destroying the infidels and paving a way for their religion to take over the world, because that is how it's meant to be by their interpretation of their holy writings. Hitler subscribed to the idea that life was nothing but the survival of the fittest amongst the different races, and that the aryans were the 'chosen ones' (to say it that way), and that the jews were 'enemies of all civilization', he also had a strong belief that he was being aided by "providence" in his fight. The current USA government feels that they have a duty to protect the whole world because they are the ones who 'know better'.
All of these examples disregard the 'collateral damage' (ie. the people who suffer and die) that their enterprises will create.
The song takes a jab at the most recent "king", so what? It's one thing to criticize a government, along with their foreign policies, and another thing is to criticize a country as a whole. The song obviously goes for the former and not the latter.
If you are still 'offended' by these lyrics, then tough luck, grow a thicker skin.
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HOME OF THE KNAVE
Verse:
Once upon a time
there was a restless king in charge.
What could he contribute
to write some history?
Gold he had plenty of
but plenty could be more
so onwards he marched
on reasons quite obscure.
Bridge:
With a blindfold and sword,
come deliver us from evil.
Chorus:
Great saviour of all,
so honest and brave.
Your land of the free
is the home of the knave.
(Land of the free, home of the knave)
Verse:
Echoes of crusaders
were heard across the world
as he fought against
the legions sent from hell.
Shadows of the templars
are yet again a fact:
creeds are cast aside
determination’s still intact..
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One thing I have to add is that the movie "911 fahrenheit" inspired me to the lyric.
Well, at least it served a useful purpose. I don't like Michael Moore much, he seems to have a personal 'political' agenda that actually can get in the way of the supposed objectivity he's trying to achieve. Some interesting tidbits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_9/11_controversy#Controversy_about_the_film.27s_content
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Honestly, I don't feel the song is anti-American at all. When I first heard it I was mildly annoyed, but after paying attention to the lyrics, I decided that the song was mostly in reference to Bush. I got the impression that the song was calling George W. a knave, since the lyrics say "Your land of the free is the home of the knave." THE Knave. Not "knaves" but only one. Singular.
And after reading back through the posts, I notice I basically just said what horus-nikopol said. :oops:
And honestly, if a US band were to write a song like this (and it HAS been done) no one would bat an eyelash.
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Found on Websters On-line Dictonary
One entry found for knave.
Main Entry: knave
Pronunciation: 'nAv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cnafa; akin to Old High German knabo boy
1 archaic a : a boy servant b : a male servant c : a man of humble birth or position
2 : a tricky deceitful fellow
3 : JACK 6a
Also, the way knave is worded in the song it can be interpeted as referencing a single person, which after seeing Stephans post I think was the intention. But it can also reference a collection or group of people. It depends on how it was written and how it was interpeted by the reader.
As far as Mike Moore is concerned, I didn't see F 9/11. Mr Moore knew that he could make millions by exploiting the unpopularity of the current American president. That movie is no more fair and accurate than what you would hear on the Factor. I'll listen to what he has to say, but I'll keep it in context by keeping in mind that he had a lot to gain by stirring the pot.
I'll look for the site tonight. I blew my Linux box away to test Vista RC1, which by the way is a resource hog. Its not as bad as Beta2 though. Yeah, I'm a geek :)
BTW: Stefan. Thanks for the clarification. I'll be the first in line to grab your new CD when it hits the streets.
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Oh BTW: I don't like or listen to US bands. There are not very many good ones outside the Kamelots, etc. American metal, and music in general is bland and shallow. I'm glad we had this dialog.
There was a German poster ealier. Hey! I lived in Bremerhaven, Mannhiem and Heidelberg a few years back. Great towns! Good beer :)
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I'll look for the site tonight. I blew my Linux box away to test Vista RC1, which by the way is a resource hog. Its not as bad as Beta2 though. Yeah, I'm a geek :)
No you aren't.
If you were, you would have kept the Linux box and blew away Windows.
;)
Greetz,
Tex
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One thing I have to add is that the movie "911 fahrenheit" inspired me to the lyric.
Well, at least it served a useful purpose. I don't like Michael Moore much, he seems to have a personal 'political' agenda that actually can get in the way of the supposed objectivity he's trying to achieve. Some interesting tidbits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_9/11_controversy#Controversy_about_the_film.27s_content
I'm staying the heck out of this thread, but I had to pop in to say that I have less than no respect for Michael Moore.
Altruists tend not to own more than one enormous house, if you know what I'm getting at. :roll:
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And honestly, if a US band were to write a song like this (and it HAS been done) no one would bat an eyelash.
Yep. Exactly.
Megadeth (AKA D Mustaine), for instance, have a very clear message in all their songs (especially the last album) about what they think about the Bush administration and what direction they're moving, and I don't think many Americans gets angry at them when listening to their music. Sadly, because Dave Mustaine has got one hell of a point. Can't wait for the upcoming album (United Abominations). :twisted:
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Well well, it seems like this song stirred up some feelings. Just as I knew it would.
How about the song 'Delusion'?
I don´t hate americans, in fact a part of me felt good to know that the regime in Iraq got their asses kicked.
Have they no right to exist on their own? In my opinion the invasion of Iraq was no better than the 9th of April is to danes.
The invasion of Afganistan is obviously something I couldn't critizise at the moment it happened because of the facts that led up to it.
I don't see why?
Have you ever been to the US? My guess is no.
Yes, I have been to the US.
You seem really angry.
I'm not. I just don't see, why I should tolerate anyone who has done so much to destroy the European cultures. I also know what Europe was and what it has become, that has nothing to do with hate-mongering. You don't have to patronize me at all, I'm sure you're very well read, but I have no interest in your trivial litterature.
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jakob_hasse:
you really dislike America, don't you?
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I'm really not good at talking politics, that's why I've stayed out of here.
I have a general feeling that "Northwind" contains some really thought provoking songs and that's a good thing!
One grammatical sidenote:
Also, the way knave is worded in the song it can be interpeted as referencing a single person, which after seeing Stephans post I think was the intention. But it can also reference a collection or group of people. It depends on how it was written and how it was interpeted by the reader.
"knave" as in "home of the knave" can not be misread as a reference to a group of people. "knave" is singular and can not be used in a plural meaning.
"brave" as in "home of the brave" can be used as a plural, because it is an adjective.
it's just a short form for "the ones who are brave". (i.e. "home of the ones who are brave")
for a group of people you'll have to use the word "knaves" and that was not used in the lyrics to the Falconer song. so the meaning is 100% singular.
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I don´t hate americans, in fact a part of me felt good to know that the regime in Iraq got their asses kicked.
Have they no right to exist on their own? In my opinion the invasion of Iraq was no better than the 9th of April is to danes.
You seem really angry.
I'm not. I just don't see, why I should tolerate anyone who has done so much to destroy the European cultures. I also know what Europe was and what it has become, that has nothing to do with hate-mongering. You don't have to patronize me at all, I'm sure you're very well read, but I have no interest in your trivial litterature.
Regarding the first part - yes, Iraqis have the right to exist on their own, free of a dictatorship. Leaving aside the semantics of why the war was carried out and the hypocrisy of not removing other dictatorships, are you saying the average Iraqi would be happier under Hussein than under a democratic government?
Regarding the second part - how exactly does the US attemp to "destroy the European cultures"? If people from European nations embrace (what you perceive as) negative aspects of American culture isn't that their own problem?
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Regarding the first part - yes, Iraqis have the right to exist on their own, free of a dictatorship. Leaving aside the semantics of why the war was carried out and the hypocrisy of not removing other dictatorships, are you saying the average Iraqi would be happier under Hussein than under a democratic government?
Whether you're convinced this or that, whether you are a trotzkyist or a democrat, if you're certain enough that you have the right ideas, anyone who's not blessed by your conviction must suffer in your opinion. Because we were born under democracy and christianity, we bought Bush's arguments, but as Stefan said, there was nothing altruistic about the invasion of Iraq.
I also think trying to feed democracy to the muslims is a waste of time and resources.
Regarding the second part - how exactly does the US attemp to "destroy the European cultures"? If people from European nations embrace (what you perceive as) negative aspects of American culture isn't that their own problem?
Ever since WW2 we in europe have been blessed by the yankee saviors. The occupation of Germany and France and their continued presence in our lands during many years have infested our countries with their rotten culture. If they really wanted to help "the oppressed masses of Germany and Europe" they would have dethroned Hitler and gone home.
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What's wrong with the German culture? They got some really good beer and good ol' greasy food. And David Hasselhoff.
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And David Hasselhoff.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/graveofguilt/thumbsup.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/graveofguilt/hoffmc.jpg)
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What's wrong with the German culture? They got some really good beer and good ol' greasy food. And David Hasselhoff.
Yeahhhh...the German obsession with Hasslehoff is mind-boggling. As far as I'm concerned, the Germans can keep him. ;)
I do love beer and brats, though! One of my favorite foods. :D
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LOL
That silly billy is a real treat!
One more good thing about Germany is "In extremo", a very nice folk-metal band. Very good actually. Except for the language (:lol:), and especially when they try to sing in Swedish. Arrgh!
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(...)
I am concerned with the “crusade” remark because it is the same reference used by the Arab world toward the US.
(...)
My other concern is that this song is implying that all Americans are knaves. Once again; you move into dangerous territory when you typecast a group of people in a single description(...)
Notice something? ;)
It certainly spent plottnig about conquering or spreading our belief systems across the globe. It couldn’t be farther from the fact.
But that is just what the metapher of a "crusade" matches - and it does not say that all people who were made to go to Iraq and fight there where of the opinion that they had to spread their ethics and ideas to the other end of the world. But somebody thought so and decided against the United Nations' decision to enter military actions.
You have some good points there and it is nice to see reasonable discussion about this topic, but I think the interpretation you achieved there is a little over the top. Don't get everything in that way so easily... Just my 0.02 €.
edit: Yeah, as usual, I'm a little late.. <sigh> sorry. ;)
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Regarding the second part - how exactly does the US attemp to "destroy the European cultures"? If people from European nations embrace (what you perceive as) negative aspects of American culture isn't that their own problem?
Ever since WW2 we in europe have been blessed by the yankee saviors. The occupation of Germany and France and their continued presence in our lands during many years have infested our countries with their rotten culture. If they really wanted to help "the oppressed masses of Germany and Europe" they would have dethroned Hitler and gone home.
I'm sorry but that's just xenophobia. Didn't they go home after Hitler was removed? Its not like they left military battalions in Europe after World War II. The only Americans in Europe are individual people who have chosen to move there. Do you want to forcibly remove them or something?
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A week left to release and there is already an argue referring to a song on the album.
I wonder what kind of a debate "Delusion" will start...
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Regarding the second part - how exactly does the US attemp to "destroy the European cultures"? If people from European nations embrace (what you perceive as) negative aspects of American culture isn't that their own problem?
Ever since WW2 we in europe have been blessed by the yankee saviors. The occupation of Germany and France and their continued presence in our lands during many years have infested our countries with their rotten culture. If they really wanted to help "the oppressed masses of Germany and Europe" they would have dethroned Hitler and gone home.
I'm sorry but that's just xenophobia. Didn't they go home after Hitler was removed? Its not like they left military battalions in Europe after World War II. The only Americans in Europe are individual people who have chosen to move there. Do you want to forcibly remove them or something?
Ok, that's not true. Have you ever heard of East and West Germany? Yes, there was a lot of American military present in Europe in many years after the war.
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A week left to release and there is already an argue referring to a song on the album.
I wonder what kind of a debate "Delusion" will start...
Yeah, dude, you're right.
But hey, as long as people discuss about these topics you can see that the new songs are really thought provoking.
It's healthy advertisment I'd say.
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A week left to release and there is already an argue referring to a song on the album.
I wonder what kind of a debate "Delusion" will start...
Yeah, dude, you're right.
But hey, as long as people discuss about these topics you can see that the new songs are really thought provoking.
It's healthy advertisment I'd say.
Quite true, good sir Prab!
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Regarding the second part - how exactly does the US attemp to "destroy the European cultures"? If people from European nations embrace (what you perceive as) negative aspects of American culture isn't that their own problem?
Ever since WW2 we in europe have been blessed by the yankee saviors. The occupation of Germany and France and their continued presence in our lands during many years have infested our countries with their rotten culture. If they really wanted to help "the oppressed masses of Germany and Europe" they would have dethroned Hitler and gone home.
I'm sorry but that's just xenophobia. Didn't they go home after Hitler was removed? Its not like they left military battalions in Europe after World War II. The only Americans in Europe are individual people who have chosen to move there. Do you want to forcibly remove them or something?
Ok, that's not true. Have you ever heard of East and West Germany? Yes, there was a lot of American military present in Europe in many years after the war.
Yes, just as there were British and French forces occupying Germany too. Do you think Europe would have coped better in the aftermath of the war if all military forces were immediately pulled out? Keeping of the peace and restoration of order in the aftermath of a war requires military supervision. Also, do you think we would have recovered quite so well without the billions of dollars the US contributed to reconstruction?
I'm not a lover of all things America by any means, but man you've got a serious chip on your shoulder to hate a country and its people quite so much,
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And most importantly: There is no German obserssion with David Hasselhoff. Complete chliché. I do not know a single person who likes him.
And Radagast is quite correct. The allied forces *needed* to remain in Germany after WW2 because otherwise, chaos and anarchy would have swept all over the land. Or the Nazis could have taken control again and organized some kind of rebellion. It was absolutely neccessary to have military supervision to make sure the country can be rebuilt and the Nazi movement is annihilated. And that was a job well done by America.
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And most importantly: There is no German obserssion with David Hasselhoff. Complete chliché. I do not know a single person who likes him.
And Radagast is quite correct. The allied forces *needed* to remain in Germany after WW2 because otherwise, chaos and anarchy would have swept all over the land. Or the Nazis could have taken control again and organized some kind of rebellion. It was absolutely neccessary to have military supervision to make sure the country can be rebuilt and the Nazi movement is annihilated. And that was a job well done by America.
Beautiful, you're a standing example of their favourite "de-nazified" germans, you must be really proud of yourself and so is your once so beautiful country.
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Germany is still beautiful. It has become beautiful - again. When do 'you' think it was beautiful? When swastikas were hanging from every building? Or when the country lay in ruins? I'm having difficulties following your reasoning.
And please try to be less rude, I don't insult you for your opinion either. And btw, I am by no means an uncritical, European purely American-loyal idiot. I am very critical of the current US government (Me and friends of mine are actually involved in a comedy project that is really the ultimate Bush mockery) and I am very aware that the US have messed up big time at several occasions in history.
But so has every country. And it should not make you blind towards the achievements that were also made. Because otherwise you're as one-dimensional as the idiots who run the white house right now.
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Didn't they go home after Hitler was removed? Its not like they left military battalions in Europe after World War II. The only Americans in Europe are individual people who have chosen to move there. Do you want to forcibly remove them or something?
I think that there is a large american army camp near the city of Kaiserslautern. If my memory does not betray me I'm pretty sure that many thousands of americans live there. The US-Italy game in the World Cup was played there and most of the audience were americans.
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@Black Knight: Delusion is one of my favorite songs on the album. :) "Will stupidity get canonized?" I've often asked myself the same thing. However, despite the fact that I have a leaked copy on my computer, I am still quite eagerly awaiting my pre-ordered copy from Metalblade. I'm absolutely salivating.
@Radagast and Horus: Thank you for merely stating the truth. I have been staying out of this discussion because it doesn't matter what I say, it's unlikely that I would be believed. But it appears neither of you are much believed either. Also, I'm not very good at the debating. :( But again, this American appreciates it. :)
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And most importantly: There is no German obserssion with David Hasselhoff. Complete chliché. I do not know a single person who likes him.
Damnation! I thought I was right about something in this cursed thread! Argh!
@Black Knight: Delusion is one of my favorite songs on the album. :) "Will stupidity get canonized?" I've often asked myself the same thing. However, despite the fact that I have a leaked copy on my computer, I am still quite eagerly awaiting my pre-ordered copy from Metalblade. I'm absolutely salivating.
You have a leaked copy!? Then you shall die! *swings two-handed sword and misses by 2 meters*
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What a thread :shock:
Anyways, I've always failed to see the point in blaming the whole nation instead of just the people, who actually gave the orders. I mean, we don't blame Germany as a whole for what Hitler did, do we? So why on earth should we blame all the americans for what Bush (the government, how ever you like to see it) has done?
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Because it is veeery convenient! :wink:
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What a thread :shock:
Anyways, I've always failed to see the point in blaming the whole nation instead of just the people, who actually gave the orders. I mean, we don't blame Germany as a whole for what Hitler did, do we? So why on earth should we blame all the americans for what Bush (the government, how ever you like to see it) has done?
If you missed the point, I wasn't just talking about Bush...
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I too have tried to stay out of this thread as well, though I am exremely pleased to see that most of the discussions have been civil and thoughtful. That speaks volumes to the integrity of the people of the falconer boards.
One of complicated facets of history/politics/world events is that everyone interprets things through their own perspective. Using the Iraqi war as an example, I am sure that you could ask 1 Iraqi how they feel and they would say that they wished the US stayed the heck out of Iraq, and another would be so glad that the US is helping out. Just as here you can ask two Americans and find the same opposire answers.
In getting information from various news sources and media, as well as history, you run the same risk. It is hard to be sure if there is a slant or under lying bias in the presentation. It is very hard, I believe, to be totally objective in presenting anything.
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I too have tried to stay out of this thread as well, though I am exremely pleased to see that most of the discussions have been civil and thoughtful. That speaks volumes to the integrity of the people of the falconer boards.
One of complicated facets of history/politics/world events is that everyone interprets things through their own perspective. Using the Iraqi war as an example, I am sure that you could ask 1 Iraqi how they feel and they would say that they wished the US stayed the heck out of Iraq, and another would be so glad that the US is helping out. Just as here you can ask two Americans and find the same opposire answers.
In getting information from various news sources and media, as well as history, you run the same risk. It is hard to be sure if there is a slant or under lying bias in the presentation. It is very hard, I believe, to be totally objective in presenting anything.
This is essentially what I've been trying to put across. There is no such thing as a right/wrong answer when it comes to things like this. Blanket statements about Americans, Iraqis, Europeans or whatever are no different than saying all black people are car thieves.
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This is essentially what I've been trying to put across. There is no such thing as a right/wrong answer when it comes to things like this. Blanket statements about Americans, Iraqis, Europeans or whatever are no different than saying all black people are car thieves.
America has been the greatest cultural imperialist country, it's fair to say that one would rather maintain one's own culture instead of having it replaced by the American. Of course, when someone moves from his fatherland, he brings his culture with him, the same way any American would bring with him his culture and that for me is a good reason to say as a European that Americans aren't welcome. I have not come with any generalizing statements regarding the nature of Americans at all, just that I don't like their culture and that the same culture has been damaging for the European peoples.
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Jacob_hasse: Who created USA?
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Jacob_hasse: Who created USA?
A pack of worthless fugitives, who weren't good enough to live in Europe.
And originally were all from Africa...
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Ha ha ha! Just like Australia then?
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Ha ha ha! Just like Australia then?
I guess so... :)
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ok, i wount take anny side in this disgussion, but it seems to me that it's coming 2 an end...
2 the great american patriot, take a look at this... i don't know how reliable this is, but some of it seems rather suspissios...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=94448691996878155&q=loose+change+swed
an 2 that rassist dane, you make some good points, but most of it is just plain anger, hate and rasisim. are u BTW awere of the fact that the nazis only needed 2days to conquer your country?
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are u BTW awere of the fact that the nazis only needed 2days to conquer your country?
We weren't stupid enough to fight, when we knew we would lose, unlike you. At least we had our own government, you had Quisling ruling for years...
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Blanket statements about Americans, Iraqis, Europeans or whatever are no different than saying all black people are car thieves.
Generalizations have been unnecessarily demonized, but they do serve a well defined purpose and theyhave a reason (and basis) to exist. Even though one should always keep in mind that exceptions are out there, the general behavior of a group of people, race, or animals can be observed and based on that, something can be expected from them.
For example, let's suppose that one is walking down the street when all of a sudden three dogs sitting on the sidewalk can be seen. Two dogs belong to the Rottweiler race and the other one is a Doberman. What to do? The most likely scenario would find the person who wants to go further crossing to the other side of the street in order to continue the journey.
It can be easily seen that such a behavior could be very well described as generalizing. The dogs could have been the most peacful and tame animals in the world, or maybe just one of them was, or two, or... well, the point is made I guess. Yet, perhaps those dogs would have behaved as they generally do when they are trying to protect something, and would have ripped to pieces the person that tried to get by them.
Generalizations exist for a reason, and it's up to the individual to know when to use a wiser judgemnet to find an exceptional case.
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Mindtraveller, you are a very wise person.
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Blanket statements about Americans, Iraqis, Europeans or whatever are no different than saying all black people are car thieves.
Generalizations have been unnecessarily demonized, but they do serve a well defined purpose and theyhave a reason (and basis) to exist. Even though one should always keep in mind that exceptions are out there, the general behavior of a group of people, race, or animals can be observed and based on that, something can be expected from them.
For example, let's suppose that one is walking down the street when all of a sudden three dogs sitting on the sidewalk can be seen. Two dogs belong to the Rottweiler race and the other one is a Doberman. What to do? The most likely scenario would find the person who wants to go further crossing to the other side of the street in order to continue the journey.
It can be easily seen that such a behavior could be very well described as generalizing. The dogs could have been the most peacful and tame animals in the world, or maybe just one of them was, or two, or... well, the point is made I guess. Yet, perhaps those dogs would have behaved as they generally do when they are trying to protect something, and would have ripped to pieces the person that tried to get by them.
Generalizations exist for a reason, and it's up to the individual to know when to use a wiser judgemnet to find an exceptional case.
"If the first grape you eat is bitter then you will not bother eating grapes again. If the first grape you eat is a sweet one then you will be willing to eat a lot of bitter grapes in search of another sweet one "
You forget, that a few bad seeds can ruin the whole "race." as well. Going back to the dog example - Pit Bulls have a reputation as being violent, aggressive dogs. But this is ONLY because idiots continue to use them for illegal dog fights. If you train a dog to be aggressive, that dog is going to be aggressive, whether Pit Bull, Rottweiler, Labrador or Toy Poodle. My experience with Pit Bulls has been nothing but positive. The breed is, on the whole, very people-friendly and loveable. However, the media portrays pit bulls as being vicious killers because that is what sells. I've noticed that the most vicious dogs are the smaller breeds, especially terriers.
It's easier to make generalizations than to actually THINK. It's easier to assume and believe everything negative you hear than it is to consider all angles.
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AngelOfMusic, you also got a point there, though I think generalizations are quite good (and natural) as long as they don't result in fear, racism, hatred, extremism or anything other destructive.
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You forget, however, that a few bad seeds can ruin the whole "race." as well. Going back to the dog example - Pit Bulls have a reputation as being violent, aggressive dogs. But this is ONLY because idiots continue to use them for illegal dog fights. If you train a dog to be aggressive, that dog is going to be aggressive, whether Pit Bull, Rottweiler, Labrador or Toy Poodle. My experience with Pit Bulls has been nothing but positive. The breed is, on the whole, very people-friendly and loveable. However, the media portrays pit bulls as being vicious killers because that is what sells. I've noticed that the most vicious dogs are the smaller breeds, especially terriers.
Well, Terriers actually belong to the Pit bull family. This family has an historical background that can help provide some information about why these dogs could generally be seen as aggressive. They were usually bred to show aggression towards other dogs. Nowadays that has been mostly left in the past, only resurfacing when the idiots you mention train them for aggressive purposes.
But I digress, in this case you are taking a different dog race or family than the ones used in the previous example, and as such, the approach is completely different. It's a case of misinformation instead of generalization.
It's easier to make generalizations than to actually THINK. It's easier to assume and believe everything negative you hear than it is to consider all angles.
That's why in the bottom line of my previous post I wrote what I wrote...
To clarify, in the dogs example, the idea is made in a bare-bones way to make a point come across easily, but if the person was trying to determine all the possible angles, another likely scenario would have been talking to the dogs or making a certain friendly gesture and seeing how the dogs react. Still, this would obviously be exceptional behavior, as people in general would simply try to avoid getting into trouble with dogs that can very well rip you apart. ;)
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*cough* Right, PIt Bull Terrier. :oops: My knowledge of animals failed me! AUGH! Oh well, it happens. Yes, Pit Bulls are part of the terrier family.
Alright, I see what you're saying. However, I stand by my stance that generalizations are mostly negative and not at all conducive of getting over predjudice and short-sightedness. In this case, we aren't talking about dogs. We're talking about my countrymen. YES, there are quite a few ignorant Americans, but the more I interact with people from other countries, I'm finding that there are just as many ignorant people the world over.
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Alright, I see what you're saying. However, I stand by my stance that generalizations are mostly negative and not at all conducive of getting over predjudice and short-sightedness. In this case, we aren't talking about dogs. We're talking about my countrymen. YES, there are quite a few ignorant Americans, but the more I interact with people from other countries, I'm finding that there are just as many ignorant people the world over.
You are probably right when you say that generalizations can be mostly negative, a lot of people are unable to recognize the fact that exceptions do exist. But that's a case of bad 'management' more than anything (like the people who breed dogs to fight ;)). Still, those who have a better understanding of how such things work can benefit from a well rooted, understood generalization.
As for the generalizations about people; we tend to feel ourselves included whenever we are part of a group that is the target of a negative generalization. For example, when one hears about metalheads being ignorant, obnoxious, and prone to violent behavior, one can feel offended and say "that's not true", but the thing is, it IS true. Most metalheads I've come across in my life meet those characteristics, and only a few have been exceptions, only the gods know how annoyed I've been at every live show I've been due to the stupidity of the majority of the people there who need to show how metal and tough they are.
So, when one is part of a generalization, it's better to just shrug it off and think "well, it's true, most of them are like that... if I'm lumped with them, then whatever, those who come close near me will perhaps be able to see that I might as well be an exception". Yet, this doesn't change the fact that the generalization itself can be pretty much spot on. Sure, it's really unfortunate that most people can't wisely use the information, but the generalization in itself is what it is: data gathered through observation.
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As for the generalizations about people; we tend to feel ourselves included whenever we are part of a group that is the target of a negative generalization. For example, when one hears about metalheads being ignorant, obnoxious, and prone to violent behavior, one can feel offended and say "that's not true", but the thing is, it IS true. Most metalheads I've come across in my life meet those characteristics, and only a few have been exceptions, only the gods know how annoyed I've been at every live show I've been due to the stupidity of the majority of the people there who need to show how metal and tough they are.
That's interesting you should mention metalheads. My experience has been the opposite. Most of the metalheads I've come across in my life are intelligent, polite individuals. Even at concerts, there has always been a sense of commeraderie and friendship among perfect strangers. Even at the one death metal show I was at, I was concerned about my safety because I had only heard that the shows sometimes got violent. But when I was there, people were friendly and polite. And despite the fact there was a mosh pit, if someone fell, the moshers around him (or her!) stopped and helped that person up, then resumed moshing.
Generalizations are often based on experiences. And often times individual experience varries. In this case, our individual experiences with fellow metalheads. You say most metalheads are violent and prone to stupidity. I say that the opposite is true. Why? Because my experiences have been positive whereas yours obviously have not been so positive.
The same goes for Americans. If you have only been around stupid Americans, you are going to generalize and assume that most of the people in the US are stupid. Just as if I were to only interact with arrogant Europeans, I would generalize that most Europeans were arrogant. But is this true? Many Americans think so. I do not necissarily agree, though with certain sentiments expressed here, it's very tempting to say "Yes, Europeans are arrogant." However, I will not have my opinions changed by a few sour grapes. It would be very easy to do so, but what would that earn me? Nothing good, that is for certain.
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Generalizations are often based on experiences. And often times individual experience varries. In this case, our individual experiences with fellow metalheads. You say most metalheads are violent and prone to stupidity. I say that the opposite is true. Why? Because my experiences have been positive whereas yours obviously have not been so positive.
Your case could be an exception, as I know metalheads from Canada, the USA, Belarus, Turkey, etc, that have experienced very similar negative behaviour from the other metalheads they've seen at shows or have in general met, this is based on their own local observations.
A true and valid generalization is achieved when the sum of experiences of a number of people sheds a, well, general result. It is mostly a scientific process that throws some numbers, and based on those numbers a conclusion can be found.
To reach a valid generalization, it is needed to take into consideration a number of sources to reach a conclusion, otherwise it's just a half-baked approach to the idea in question. Again, this doesn't deny that there will be cases like yours where there are exceptions, but they are not representative of the general idea.
Still, I think you are picking single ideas and my main point is not getting across. The above is an example that only regards the nature of a generalization and how it is given credibility, it could very well be the other way around (most metalheads actually not being ignorant and disrespectful), and then the whole idea would change from a generalization through observation to a case of misinformation.
A statement that says "Jews attend to their religious beliefs" is correct, as it is the general rule, even though there are those who do not. This is a generalization based on observation throughout the globe and coming from many sources. In this case, the individual experiences do not matter when isolated, as someone who has met Jews that do not attend to their religion might argue that it isn't true that in general Jews do so, just as it wouldn't be true if someone else said that all Jews around the world do. This kind of localized data does not serve a purpose for the wider generalization because it is a) taking the exceptional cause as the general rule, and b) excluding the exceptions completely.
In the end, I want to make clear that my point is to show that generalizations do serve a valid purpose, even though we as individuals will have a different perception about certain things based on our own experiences, they do not change as a whole. To quote what I said earlier: "Generalizations exist for a reason, and it's up to the individual to know when to use a wiser judgement to find an exceptional case." But I can't stress enough that the generalization does not change because of this, it is what it is.
Just to make my point even clearer: You need to go through a dark alley at night, you are alone, and you can spot two individuals that are approaching, they are dressed as the 'typical' thugs. What do you do? Do you take your chances by thinking the idea of "dark alley + alone at night + people dressed as thugs = bad" is just a stupid generalization?
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Your alley description is a moot point, since I would not be silly enough to wander through a dark alley at night alone. It's not a generalization to see two people dressed in black in a dark alley and to think "hmm...I'm alone in a dark alley, there are two strangers coming at me who look imposing, this is possible danger" that is merely common sense at work. It is not generalization.
But to go assuming that every person of a certain demographic you meet is going to behave a certain way is folly. -that- is what I'm going on about in regards to generalizations.
There is more than just one way to generalize. Yes, you can make generlizations based on tested theory. But many people do not. Often times generlizations are the result of making an inference based on merely a FEW facts, examples or observations, not many, as you appear to be trying to convince me of. If I'm still missing something, I appologize. I'm ill. Literally. I have strep throat, or something similar. :(
Ooh, that's a good example - saying "strep throat is painful." This is true. It is also a generalization. As you've been pointing out in regards to generalizations - it is one made on fact, and one that most, if not all people with strep throat have complained of. But the negative generalization about Americans? Often enough it's been made based on "what I've heard" or what that particular country's biased media likes to portray. Or perhaps one bad experience soured a person's opinions and caused them to make such negative generalizations. (refer back to my quote about grapes.)
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Your alley description is a moot point, since I would not be silly enough to wander through a dark alley at night alone. It's not a generalization to see two people dressed in black in a dark alley and to think "hmm...I'm alone in a dark alley, there are two strangers coming at me who look imposing, this is possible danger" that is merely common sense at work. It is not generalization.
Not necessarily a moot point, since said common sense is based on previous information gathered about what the general outcome will be in such a situation. these people are dangerous because they are in an alley at night and they are dressed in the general way thugs do. If they were dressed in "regular" clothes and were a couple that one could think " they are middle-class suburban people", the whole thing would change. However, one generalizes that people who dress in a certain way are more likely to be criminals. In this regard, said generalization is achieved based on the observed context, surroundings and appearance of a person or persons.
But to go assuming that every person of a certain demographic you meet is going to behave a certain way is folly. -that- is what I'm going on about in regards to generalizations.
There is more than just one way to generalize. Yes, you can make generlizations based on tested theory. But many people do not. Often times generlizations are the result of making an inference based on merely a FEW facts, examples or observations, not many, as you appear to be trying to convince me of.
I think this is where the main misunderstanding lies, really. I agree with you in that most people will make up their minds about a certain group of people based on a couple of things they've observed. These are often the kind that will not look for exceptions and will treat everyone who belongs to a certain group the same way, no matter what the differences might be.
However, there are also some people who, even though they acknowledge that certain groups of people follow a generally observed behaviour, they are also aware of the existance of exceptions, and will look for them under certain circumstances.
The generally observed behaviour should serve as a sort of guide to know what to expect from a certain group. It is indeed unfortunate that most people take it as an unchangeable absolute, regardless of the individual.
But the negative generalization about Americans? Often enough it's been made based on "what I've heard" or what that particular country's biased media likes to portray. Or perhaps one bad experience soured a person's opinions and caused them to make such negative generalizations. (refer back to my quote about grapes.)
I want to be clear that I'm not discussing the generalizations that are made about the people of the USA, my argument is done regardless of that.
It should be good to keep in mind though, that generalizations about the people of a certain country refer to the average citizen. Most societies function in such a way that seems to be custom-built for drones and idiots, where success equals to economical triumph and societal status and where the average person will see anything that contradicts or challenges his views as a personal attack. These slaves to the grind constitute the mass known as "the people" of a given country, which is why whenever I see someone say "the people from [insert country name here] are ignorant and stupid" I don't see it as an affrent, but as something that can be applied as a reality worldwide (you yourself mentioned about how you've been in touch with people from other countries and found out that they are just as ignorant and dumb as many of your countrymen).
But I feel like I'm digressing again. Still, I hope that our misunderstanding has been cleared by now.
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Arlighty, so basically we're on the same page. My thoughts are just fuzzy. As I said, I'm sick, and I've been bombarding myself with medicines to try and get over it.
I don't agree with you on "people from (insert country here) are ignorant and stupid" is not an affront. It certainly is, if said generalization is a falsehood. But that's the thing about generalizations - people take them as absolute truth, as you've so noted. But when I mentioned my experiences with many Europeans, that doesn't mean I think the majority are that specific way. But I am aware that there are enough negative opinions that enough people vocallise to make the others look bad, and make someone draw the inference that "Europeans don't like Americans." Just as an example. I think that's where we differ. Which isn't a BAD thing. Can't have everyone agreeing. That's no fun.
Am I making any sense at this point? :shock: Anyway, it's been fun. I HOPE the above made sense, as an expansion on what's already been said.
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I feel that I would like to make a point to add to the direction that the thread has gone in.
As we develop, early in childhood, the concept of generalization happens around age 1-2. A child learns the word "dog" for example if the family has a dog. They then start calling the neighbors cat "dog" and horses that they see by the side of the road "dog". They have generalized all 4 legged animals as dog, from their limited point of reference. As they learn more about the world they live in, they learn that not all 4 legged animals are dogs, there are cats, horses, and so on. This is a higher functioning of deduction/reasoning. But that reasoning did not come without the information the child has picked up through either experience or being taught by someone else.
(This is not to degrade anyone- I am just making a point here)- Generalizations are, hmm I can't find suitable words here- sort of a "less intelligent" way of looking at things. It is a guess, based only on past experiences and no new information. What MIndtraveller had stated (I believe) is that generalizations/stereotypes, do exist for some reason. It is inherrent that we as people do this. However to get past this, an individual needs to look at as much info as they can, or want to, to make the best possible assessment of the situation.
We also need to remember that we all cloud our choices by our perceptions, which are based on past experiences. I really do not agree with what jakob has stated but I do look at his posts and ask "what has he expeienced in his life that has caused him to think this way?" Making matters even more entangled is that I have to look at what my experiences are in order to realize what my reactions to his statements are being driven by. It can go on and on and on and..........
I hope I added something meaningful to this discussion,and I would be glad to clarify anything, it has been a long day at work and I just want to go get a drink!!! :beer:
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RN, you basically summed up what I was trying to say, and you did so much more succinctly than I ever could hope to. I suck at debating. :(
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As we develop, early in childhood, the concept of generalization happens around age 1-2. A child learns the word "dog" for example if the family has a dog. They then start calling the neighbors cat "dog" and horses that they see by the side of the road "dog". They have generalized all 4 legged animals as dog, from their limited point of reference. As they learn more about the world they live in, they learn that not all 4 legged animals are dogs, there are cats, horses, and so on. This is a higher functioning of deduction/reasoning. But that reasoning did not come without the information the child has picked up through either experience or being taught by someone else.
True, but that is not a valid generalization, as it is based on lack of information and, as you said, mostly guesses. A valid generalization will come later in life, when the child grows and begins to understand that dogs share a lot of characteristics and traits that make them dogs. But in that process, s/he will also understand that within the canine kingdom, there are a number of races that have completely different characteristics that set them apart from each other.
Moreso, with this information and data gathered, the person will be able to recognize the physical and behavioral characteristics that define a race as such. S/He will come across certain individual dogs that do not conform to the general rule and will recognize those as exceptional creatures, but s/he will know now that certain races, as a whole, are more likely to be aggressive, tame, nervous, laid back, etc.
Generalizations are, hmm I can't find suitable words here- sort of a "less intelligent" way of looking at things. It is a guess, based only on past experiences and no new information.
Taking what I wrote above, you can see that valid generalizations are most definitely not guesses. A generalization is (ideally) based on information gathered through practice and observation, it is nothing but data. It can't make someone more or less intelligent. What can do that though, is the way in which said data is obtained and how it is put into practice.
Looking back, it's a bit funny to see how throughout this discussion there has been a sort of silent agrement as to how people, in general, will use generalizations in a negative way. ;)
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I don't think there can be valid generalizations about living "things". As you say it is just the collection of data and a person will find out exceptions and this and that - there will always be exceptions, there always are individuals that are totally different from others who are different from others and others...
And the saying "Exceptions proof the rule" is mere bullshit. An exception can never proof a rule (generalization) to be valid, it falsifies it and nothing else.
Just a coin from me. I really like the way this discussion has been done in the end. Thank you and good night. ;)
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So interesting....
I, same as AngelOfMusic, am awful at debating. Also, as an American, I didn't care to get into the dog fight, because for the most part I would agree with alot of the things people are saying about us... but only as a nation... not individuals. I also disagree with the "grouping" and "generalizations". We are NOT all the same here. And thank goddess for that.
Although we are all set apart by islands of earth, we are all, realistically, the SAME. I would bleed the same blood as anyone else here. I have friends all over the world... literally, and guess what... we all think, feel, and LOVE in the same basic way. We may not AGREE on everything, we agree to DISAGREE and let it go, Because that is what makes us human. We have the grand ability to have thought. And how grand is that? We are NOT all the same and that is what makes us so wonderful.
Once you put down the shield of accusation, and let yourself get to KNOW people, be it the person next door... or the person on the other side of the world from you. You find that we ARE all a lot more alike then we are different. No matter where we happen to live. So, my feelings, which I'm sure will be bashed, but I could care less, are that people who generalize though hate and ignorace are just that... ignorant. And I pitty you for being so pathetic.
Okay.... Let me have it now. :lol: :wink:
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My wife said it very succicntly, and I believe that this is how I live.
"We need to be respectful of our differences, but we need to celebrate our commonalities"- Metalmaiden
Good discussion all!
Stefan, is this along the lines of what you had hoped to acheive writing this song?
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I think that the main problem is that sometimes generalizations are seen as something that strips something from the unique individual traits that it might possess. This is not true, a generalization has that name precisely because it shows the general characteristics that something possess, without limiting it to those. Saying "Nigerian people are black" is a generalization that merely points out that the average Nigerian person has black colored skin, it doesn't try to claim that every and each Nigerian person is black, or that they are nothing but black. This is simply pointing out a general reality.
I think by now that the problem lies in the very concept of generalization. It seems that a lot of people do not understand that a generalization needs to have valid logic in order to be correct and functional, there seems to be a lot of misinformation. The problem is that many people think that generalizing is the same as this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
As you can see, that is nothing but a collection of logical fallacies, they don't follow a truly logical model. To reach valid generalizations one needs large and diverse samples from which to gather data.
A generalization does not pretend to limit its subject, nor claim that all of the individuals have to be the same, it's nothing but an average.
A hasty / faulty generalization will pretend to limit its subject, and claim that all of the individuals have to be the same, it's nothing but a fallacy.
By now it should be pretty clear that there is a big difference between the two approaches. It's just like if in the first example, people were talking about Metal and mentioned Iron Maiden and Falconer, while in the second example, they would mention Korn and Limp Bizkit. Now tell me, wouldn't you be frustrated if someone told you over and over that Metal is made by the latter bands instead of the former, all because they are misinformed and will tell you that Metal is like Linkin Park? I guess most of you would agree that those bands are not representative of Metal because they are not Metal at all, or at best, they are faulty Metal....
Guess that now you know how I feel when I can't seem to get the point across about what constitutes a valid generalization. ;)
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we all think, feel, and LOVE in the same basic way.
Here you have it people. A good example of a valid generalization; Humans think, feel, love, hate in the same basic way. This behaviour has been observed and is a general characteristic of humanity.
It should be pretty obvious that this does not mean that everyone feels the same, loves the same things, and thinks alike. But for some reason, when talking about generalizing, some think that the above example is trying to do exactly that.
We need to be respectful of our differences, but we need to celebrate our commonalities
And here's another example. Those commonalities are what valid generalizations might show within an specific group. They do not pretend to make the differences disappear, they merely point out the common, average, general things that said group possesses.
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As I walked away from the pc after writing that first post I started to wonder if people would get what I was attempting to put across or if I was going to sound the opposite of what I was trying to say.
I am AWFUL at putting my thoughts into words, so I normally keep my mouth shut, but I felt what what I posted needed to be put out there.
I ment no offence by it, we are all entitled to our opinoins.
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Spawnie- You did fine, it is hard to convey meaning sometimes over the internet simply by the fact that it is only written words. In person you would be able to communicate in other ways- body language and tone, which add to the over all expeience of communication. That is one of the reasons for emoticons. Humans use a lot more than just words to communicate. I will say again you did fine. :banger2: and I know....... :offtopic: :mrgreen:
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MIndtraveller- after thinking about it for a while, I think I now get your point as you intended. I will elaborate if you want, but I think enough has been said in this thread, just wanted to say I see your point a little clearer.
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MIndtraveller- after thinking about it for a while, I think I now get your point as you intended. I will elaborate if you want, but I think enough has been said in this thread, just wanted to say I see your point a little clearer.
Thanks, man. There's no need to elaborate really, if you feel like the point I'm trying to make is clear by now, then that should be enough.
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Spawnie- You did fine, it is hard to convey meaning sometimes over the internet simply by the fact that it is only written words. In person you would be able to communicate in other ways- body language and tone, which add to the over all expeience of communication. That is one of the reasons for emoticons. Humans use a lot more than just words to communicate. I will say again you did fine. :banger2: and I know....... :offtopic: :mrgreen:
Thanks. :D