Guns guns guns

[K. Beckman]

Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?
Cause over here it's written in the law that it's illegal to own one unless you don't have a certin promision. It's not like any one can go to the gun store and wait a few weeks and then you get one in your hand. In my opinion this is what cause so many accidents and crimes with guns.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'll leave it here.

But c'mon. If the kids are so small that they don't understand that guns are dangerous, they probably wont be able to load them nor shoot with them (if they even find them...).

But the kid accident has happend sevral times.

And there's a lot of dangerous objects in anybodys house anyways.[/

Equivalent a gun?

[Souleraser]

Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?

Look at Switzerland or Israel, where a vast majority of people owns even automatic assault rifles, as most of them are armed forces reserve. Their rate of deaths caused by firearms is much lower, too.
I believe Michael Moore delivered a partial answer to that question in "Bowling for Columbine": He showed a difference between the mentality of Canadians and Americans and I believe the same goes for differences in the mentality of Americans and most other (western) people, too. It might have to do with a general feeling of a lack of security and might also be caused by a decreased inhibition as far as violence is concerned (what ever that might be caused by).

Just a few thoughts thrown in while rushing along. Very busy these days.

[Virvatuli]

But the kid accident has happend sevral times.

A japanese boy (10yrs) impaled his classmate to a fence. It had nothing to do with guns. People kill. And when it's about kids, well... Blame canad... no! The parents And the marketing. Violent games. TV. And and and and...

[AngelOfMusic]

Unfortunately, it's easy for criminals and violent criminal offenders to get ahold of firearms (illegaly).  Also, most states do not allow concealed carry for firearms, and the criminals know that the average person does not have a gun, thus making them an easier target.  

Also, the USA has more people than Scandinavia, so naturally rate of violent crimes is going to be higher.  Las Vegas has the higest murder rate in the United States.  Las Vegas is also the fastest growing city in the US.  More people = more chance for violence, whether it be with guns, knives, or sharp, pointy sticks.

I would also like to point out that you hear about gun crimes often because that is what is newsworthy.  Anti-gun people use those instances as an excuse to say "SEE???  Guns are a problem!!!" yet every day people get stabbed to death, or die in motorcycle and car crashes and no one bats an eyelash.  It doesn't even make the national news.


here's some information about gun death in the USA: http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm

[Arthyron]

Let me ask a coupple of things. Why is it so easy to get your hands on a gun? How come that the US has so many gun related crimes? How come that (like Virvatuli wrote) there are so few gun related crimes in smaller countries like Finland?

It's not easy to get a gun.  If you don't have a permit (which you have to register at the courthouse for), you have to undergo a background check, and the government is notified that you have been given a gun.  If you have a criminal record, you cannot own a gun (this excludes things like parking violations and the like).  The US has more gun related crimes because there are MORE PEOPLE, and there's a lot more ground to cover.  Finland is a much smaller country than the United States, so of course they'll have less crimes overall.  Less people means less crimes usually.  If the rates of crime were the same percentage (or even a bit higher in Finland), even then they would have less crimes total because of the sheer numbers of people.

Cause over here it's written in the law that it's illegal to own one unless you don't have a certin promision. It's not like any one can go to the gun store and wait a few weeks and then you get one in your hand. In my opinion this is what cause so many accidents and crimes with guns.

Over 75% of the crimes that are committed with firearms are committed with firearms that were obtained ILLEGALLY.  That means, in order to get the gun, they had to break the law.  This means they stole it, bought it from an unscrupulous dealer, or got it on the black market.  Either way, it's foolishness to punish the people who use guns responsibly and safely and legally.  Laws don't matter when people don't care about laws (the very definition of a criminal).  So what do you propose should be done then, hmm?  Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.  If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless.  Statistics prove that guns lessen the number of victims of violent crimes.  Rapes, murders, and kidnappings are prevented thanks to people using guns for self defense.  If you have a solution that makes guns unneccesary and keeps criminals from getting them, then by all means let it be known.  If not, you have no reason to hate guns.  They do more good than harm when used correctly.

But the kid accident has happend sevral times.

Yeah, because there are a lot of irresponsible parents.  The responsible people who use guns correctly and safely shouldn't be punished because some people are too irresponsible to monitor their children.  I will not be punished for the crimes of others.

Equivalent a gun?

Certainly!  There's hazardous chemicals, knives, other sharp things, stairs, matches, lighters, machinery.  There are tons of things that can be deadly if a child plays with them unattended.  Most guns aren't even kept loaded, and if a gun isn't loaded, it's not dangerous.  The only time this accident occurs is when someone keeps a loaded gun around in a place where a child can reach it, and that's foolishness on the parent's part.  Once again, I shouldn't have to be penalized because some idiot left his loaded gun lying around for his kid to play with.

[dorian jane]

The US has more gun related crimes because there are MORE PEOPLE, and there's a lot more ground to cover.  ...Less people means less crimes usually.

According to Moore's documentary about guns and crime in the US -the one with Heston's interview - (btw, Heston in Greek means shit on him ahahahahhah :twisted:) the percentage between crimes related to guns and population is blown way out of proportion.
Yes, you live in a huge country , which only makes matters worse, but that's a reason why you remain split into states and have different laws and penalties in each and every one.
So, what are you telling us? that the individual states  (which are smaller than Germany , England etc) cannot act against crime?

So what do you propose should be done then, hmm?  Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.  If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless.  Statistics prove that guns lessen the number of victims of violent crimes.  Rapes, murders, and kidnappings are prevented thanks to people using guns for self defense.  If you have a solution that makes guns unneccesary and keeps criminals from getting them, then by all means let it be known.  If not, you have no reason to hate guns.  They do more good than harm when used correctly.

Stop manufacturing guns.Those you have already can last you till the end of time.
Learn martial arts.
Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.
Stop messing around with the other countries.How long will it take your governments to realise that actions cause reactions and reactions are not always pleasant?
Vote a pacifist for a president next time (if you still have one that is).
As for criminals getting hold of guns, well ,Arthyron, somebody made it easy for them to get one.Your country produces guns like Hellas produces lettuce. These guns need to be sold.Need i continue?

[Odin]

 So what do you propose should be done then, hmm?  Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.  

Education and enlightenment.

Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).

If you take guns away, all that means is criminals will be the only ones with guns, and everyone else is left defenseless.

Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?

This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go...  :?

[Souleraser]

Unfortunately, it's easy for criminals and violent criminal offenders to get ahold of firearms (illegaly).  Also, most states do not allow concealed carry for firearms, and the criminals know that the average person does not have a gun, thus making them an easier target.  

But why is that? Criminals have ways to get their hands on firearms all over the world. But in other countries the average person does not "need" a firearm to protect oneself against them. And be assured that other countries have problems with muggers etc., too.

Also, the USA has more people than Scandinavia, so naturally rate of violent crimes is going to be higher.

The rate of deaths caused by firearms is way beyond any relation:

Population Switzerland:  7,489,370  (according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html)
Deaths due to firearms (according to Moore's documentary): 91
Percentage: 0.0012150

Population USA: 295,734,134 (according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html)
Deaths due to firearms (according to Moore's documentary, recalled from memory, not 100% sure): about 9.500
Percentage: 0.0032123

More people = more chance for violence, whether it be with guns, knives, or sharp, pointy sticks.

Right. But again that's not a US-only problem. Plus: Some things like guns can be forbidden, sticks and knives can't, because there's sensible use for them, too. Besides: Our law does not allow certain types of knives either, for example.

I would also like to point out that you hear about gun crimes often because that is what is newsworthy.  Anti-gun people use those instances as an excuse to say "SEE???  Guns are a problem!!!" yet every day people get stabbed to death, or die in motorcycle and car crashes and no one bats an eyelash.  It doesn't even make the national news.

That might be a US-problem. Not every motorcycle or car crash and not every victim of a "deadly stabber" makes it to our national news, but the same goes for gun victims.

here's some information about gun death in the USA: http://www.tincher.to/deaths.htm

Seems to be made by a pro-gunner. It's not bad, but the information has to be treated with caution - just like websites by fundamentalist anti-gunners of course.

[AngelOfMusic]

www.kidsandguns.org  appears to be fairly unbiased (aka, not written by strictly "pro-gun" or "anti-gun" people) and more up-to-date than the other link.

[Arthyron]

According to Moore's documentary about guns and crime in the US -the one with Heston's interview - (btw, Heston in Greek means shit on him ahahahahhah :twisted:) the percentage between crimes related to guns and population is blown way out of proportion.

I really hope quoting Michael Moore was a joke.....you do realize he fabricated most of the "facts" in his movies.  Watch any of the several rebuttles to his mockumentaries and you'll see just how fraudulent he is.  No one in their right minds believes what Michael Moore has to say.  Seriously, compare the actual facts with what he says, and you'll see how wrong he is.  Notice he didn't say by HOW MUCH the percentage was blown out of proportion.  That's the mark of someone who has something to hide.

Yes, you live in a huge country , which only makes matters worse, but that's a reason why you remain split into states and have different laws and penalties in each and every one.
So, what are you telling us? that the individual states  (which are smaller than Germany , England etc) cannot act against crime?

Of course they can act against crime.  One way to do so is to make sure that you're not a target for criminals.  Criminals don't want to prey on people who can defend themselves.  They want the easy target, easy money.  If someone has the will and the means to stand up and defend themselves, the criminal will avoid them.  I've seen several interviews with people who are locked up in jails for the rest of their lives.  They said the biggest deterrent when dealing with potential victims, was they were always taking a risk, because they didn't know who had a gun on them and who didn't, and that if it was likely someone had a gun on them, they'd avoid them (for instance a guy wearing an NRA hat).

Stop manufacturing guns.Those you have already can last you till the end of time.

Why?  There are enough guns out there to arm most of the population.  I fail to see how more are going to matter.  If criminals want guns, they're going to get them, as most of the surplus weapons are on the black market anyway, out of the hands of legitimate dealers.  Plus advancements in firearm technology make them safer and more effective.  In the last 10 or 20 years, they have figured out ways to build in all kinds of integrated safety measures into consumer firearms to avoid accidents.  More will be discovered as technology progresses.

Learn martial arts.

Martial Arts matters very little.  I took martial arts when I was younger, and ya know, it doesn't make you a better or worse fighter.  Only experience and natural ability truly matter in a fight, because real fights involve ambient objects, the environment.  Martial arts show you better ways to do things, techniques and such, but ultimately, if someone ELSE has a gun or a knife or whatever, all the martial arts in the world aren't going to matter.  Black belt or not, you're not bullet proof.  I can easily defend myself against most people, I'm a rather large and strong individual, and quite capable in a scrap, but if someone has a gun, all my strength is useless.  And if we stop using guns, then only those who would use them for evil will have them, and we'll be powerless.

Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.

What on EARTH are you talking about?  We simply do NOT have the most illiterate people in the world.  That has got to be the most ignorant, false statement I've heard in a long time.  We're one of the better educated nations around the world.  Our educational system has its flaws as all nations do, but how can you compare us to countries like some of the third world nations around the world where people still live in houses made of wood and straw and mud.  That's simply absrd.  Less illiterate people does NOT mean less crime.  Knowledge is independent of morality.  There are plenty of intelligent and well-learned people in the world that would kill a  child without a second thought.

Stop messing around with the other countries.How long will it take your governments to realise that actions cause reactions and reactions are not always pleasant?
Vote a pacifist for a president next time (if you still have one that is).
As for criminals getting hold of guns, well ,Arthyron, somebody made it easy for them to get one.Your country produces guns like Hellas produces lettuce. These guns need to be sold.Need i continue?

Oh I see what it's about.  Now it's about politics, and not about guns.  I knew there was a hidden agenda in there somewhere.  Why don't you mind your own business and stick to YOUR country and not tell me what to do? How about that?  What does my president have to do with the topic of guns?  Nothing.  So keep this about guns or don't talk at all.  I'm sick of Europeans acting like they have all the right answers and know everything about my nation's government, how it works, and how it "should" be run.  Guess who's selling the guns to criminals?  Not the USA.  It's all the other countries in the world that are selling their former military weapons to shady people who are then selling the weapons on the black market to criminals.  We're responsible with our firearms sales.  Can you say the same for your government?

Education and enlightenment.

Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).

I agree, but how does one go about that?  You can't force morality on people, and contrary to what you think, education does not simply solve all problems.  As I said, I know tons of very intelligent and well educated people that are simply just not good people, people with very low morals.  Moral education comes mostly from one's parents and a bit from outside sources like friends, the media, and things like that.  I agree that parents need to do a better job, but once again, how do you enforce things like that?  You can't.

Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?

This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go...

Most of the time you don't even have to shoot anyone.  Most gun owners who carry guns for protection will never have to fire it in defense.  All they have to do is simply draw it and the criminal more often than not runs away, because criminals want a WEAK victim, they don't want to endanger themselves.  Criminals are like predators and scavengers.  They prey on the weak.  If someone can prove they're not weak, the criminal will usually flee.

And yes, that's why we're not forcing you to carry a gun if you dont' want to.  That's up to you.  I don't carry a gun, simply because my city is safe and I haven't felt the need to (as I said earlier, I can usually handle myself in a fight well if I need to).  But if people want to or if they feel the need to, and have met all the requirements set forth for gun ownership, then they should be able to if they so desire.  I don't believe in taking freedoms away from people simply because some people don't exercise those certain freedoms.  That's stupid.

[AngelOfMusic]

Look, I'm NOT very good at debating.  At all.

So I'm going to cover the points that stood out most to me:

Education and enlightenment.

I agree.  In fact, that's what I've been on about this whole time - in regards to proper handling and storage of guns.  If a person chooses to own a gun, they should read up on just what owning a gun entails, and make themselves familiar with all safety precautions involving gun ownership, use, and storage.

I have noticed that many of you are reacting to this gun issue as if Arthyron and I are saying everyone should own a gun. By no means am I saying that everyone SHOULD own a gun.  But for some people it is almost a necissary option. Some people live in very dangerous neighborhoods.  Even in my own small town, tragedy struck a few years ago when some people broke into an older man's house and murdered him.  He had no way of defending himself, and these people KNEW he lived alone.

If some men break into my house with the intent to rape and/or murder me, they could EASILY overpower me.

Learn martial arts.

I took a self-defense class, but it was a four week class, and while I can defend myself hand-to-hand, if they have weapons, I'm pretty much dead if I have no other way of defending myself.  This does not mean that I will automatically shoot first and ask questions later.  It merely means that when I say "I have a gun!" they will either leave (this would be ideal) or they will come in at me anyway, in which case I'd have little choice.  I don't want to kill anyone.  But my life comes first.

Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.

EXCUSE ME???  I see the mud-slinging has begun.  :roll:  You know what?  Even educated people murder others.  Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women.  The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women!  Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.

By the way...here is a map of adult illiteracy rates worldwide. http://www.uis.unesco.org/en/stats/statistics/ed/map_illit_monde2000.jpg  
Hmm...it seems less than 10% of our adult population is illiterate.  So what facts and studies were you basing your statement about US illiteracy on?

Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?

So if someone breaks into my house, I should just sit by and let them?  Considering most robbers seldom leave witnesses, who do you think is going to come out the worse for it?  I don't know about you, but I am NOT willing to risk my life on the off chance they'll just take some things and let me live.

That might be a US-problem. Not every motorcycle or car crash and not every victim of a "deadly stabber" makes it to our national news, but the same goes for gun victims.

This much is true.  In the US there are MANY people who go to either one extreme or the other.  Alot of us fall somewhere in the middle, but we are outnumbered by the more vocal anti-this, anti-that, pro-this, pro-that people.

Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).

Not necissarily.  Again, many smart, educated people have committed serious crimes.  You also bring up an ethical issue.  You cannot force morals or ethics on people.  That is my biggest gripe with the Extremist Conservative Right here in the US - they want to force THEIR morals and ethics on people.  You can't force anyone to come around to your way of thinking.  

That includes the issue of guns.  I do NOT believe that EVERYONE should have a gun.  But how do you regulate just who is fit and who isn't?  People lie.  People may do what is necissary to appear fit for all intents and purposes, but then once they get what they want, they drop the pretense and show their true colors.  Completely banning guns all together would be foolish.  It would make some currently law-abiding citizens into criminals, and it would give the already existing criminals more excuse.  Bear in mind, I'm talking about the US, and NOT Europe.  It's a different culture here.  What works for you does not necissarily work for us.  

However, I hear about quite alot of violence in Europe that is non-gun related.  Over at the Nightwish forums and Dragonforce forums there are alot of people from the UK.  I hear alot from these people about knifings and beatings, all over silly things like mobile phones, and bigger t hings, like race. When I was in London in 2004, a big story on the news was about a man who had killed an elderly couple and was on the loose (they did catch him). And I seem to recall a Swedish official being stabbed to death in a department store a few years back.  

Pacifism is NOT the answer.  Not while there are still many violent people and groups out there.  But neither is extreme force.  Unfortunately, the human race is a violent one, and until ALL peoples find a happy medium between force and pacifism, there will always be squabbles over these kinds of issues.

And just as a side note:  I've noticed that this topic went from basically being about guns and kids, to gun policy overall.

[Virvatuli]

EXCUSE ME???  I see the mud-slinging has begun.  :roll:  You know what?  Even educated people murder others.  Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women.  The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women!  Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.

Sounds like insane people to me... But illiterance leads easily to desperation, which can lead to certain violent acts. And I believe, that most of your gun killers are those, who only do it once? Like a robbery goes wrong, and then they take the guns out... But probably there is something seriously wrong with your mind if you kill tens of people, and madmen walk everywhere around this planet. But those who only kill because desperation... Aren't they often poor people? What if they would've had a better education and perhaps a job now? They wouldn't have the need to comit crimes, I guess...

[Souleraser]

Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.

EXCUSE ME???  I see the mud-slinging has begun.  :roll:  You know what?  Even educated people murder others.  Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women.  The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women!  Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.

I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.

This btw is a problem that won't be solved in the near future anywhere all over the world. It is a sad and unavoidable fact that jobs for low-educated people are becoming less and lesser day by day. This will lead to poverty which might lead to envy and both of them can lead to that kind of crime.

But again: I think that a major problem in this whole issue is that Americans are confronted with crime and violence differently from people in other countries which makes them believe they have to protect themselves that way.

One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example. Quite simple thought: A guy with a gun in his hand is standing behind you (or in front of you) and asks you to pass over your purse slowly. You try to reach the gun you hide under your jacket and pull it out and just in that moment the robber pulls the trigger.
Until everyone's allowed to have a loaded automatic assault rifle with them clearly visible, the chance that one might perhaps wear a weapon is hardly to be considered a scare-off.
And when it's not a scare-off, what's it useful for then? As written above: Do you really think you could pull out and slacken a weapon without the robber actually realising? That guy would surely have to have serious alcohol and drug problems if so. And even if you could pull it out and slacken it: What makes you believe you would actually shoot faster and aim better than the guy in front of you or in your back? It's for sure a nice thing to hit the target on a shooting range, but the situation isn't comparable in a situation like a robbery.

Seriously, I never believed this whole pro-gun-argumentation. Again I refer to Moore who had a pretty good example in "Bowling...": Where do you draw the line? Should it be legal to own an A- or H-bomb for a civilian? Or a tank? Or C4? No? Why not? These can as well be used for self defense - against whomever.

[dorian jane]

I really hope quoting Michael Moore was a joke.....you do realize he fabricated most of the "facts" in his movies.  Watch any of the several rebuttles to his mockumentaries and you'll see just how fraudulent he is.  No one in their right minds believes what Michael Moore has to say.  Seriously, compare the actual facts with what he says, and you'll see how wrong he is.  Notice he didn't say by HOW MUCH the percentage was blown out of proportion.  That's the mark of someone who has something to hide.

I'm afraid i wasn't joking. I have watched many of his documentaries and he doesn't seem fraudulent to me. And what on earth would he be hiding? and from whom? Documentaries are based on facts and his annoyed too many people , didn't they? I haven't seen anybody taking the stand and contradicting any of his documentaries.If you can prove otherwise, please do so.

Why?  There are enough guns out there to arm most of the population.  I fail to see how more are going to matter.  If criminals want guns, they're going to get them, as most of the surplus weapons are on the black market anyway, out of the hands of legitimate dealers.  Plus advancements in firearm technology make them safer and more effective.  In the last 10 or 20 years, they have figured out ways to build in all kinds of integrated safety measures into consumer firearms to avoid accidents.  More will be discovered as technology progresses.

Sorry Arthyron, i do not see it that way.As i said, produced guns need to be sold.Sooner or later they come to the hands of those you do not want to own one.Weapon industries don't mind that.It's trade after all, isn't it? But people should care.What if technology made weapons safer to the user? Can it make weapons safer for the potential victim?
I guess not.That's not the point in making weapons , is it?

Martial Arts matters very little.  I took martial arts when I was younger, and ya know, it doesn't make you a better or worse fighter.  Only experience and natural ability truly matter in a fight, because real fights involve ambient objects, the environment.  Martial arts show you better ways to do things, techniques and such, but ultimately, if someone ELSE has a gun or a knife or whatever, all the martial arts in the world aren't going to matter.  Black belt or not, you're not bullet proof.  I can easily defend myself against most people, I'm a rather large and strong individual, and quite capable in a scrap, but if someone has a gun, all my strength is useless.

Martial arts do make a difference.I didn't have the chance to take a course but i had a friend who used to be an instructor/soldier in the Foreign Legion and who taught me how to kill a person with my two bare hands in 6 seconds. But,i guess it's easier to use a gun rather than sweating in order to make a weapon out of your body.
 

And if we stop using guns, then only those who would use them for evil will have them, and we'll be powerless.

Well, if that's how you feel..

What on EARTH are you talking about?  We simply do NOT have the most illiterate people in the world.  That has got to be the most ignorant, false statement I've heard in a long time.  We're one of the better educated nations around the world.  Our educational system has its flaws as all nations do, but how can you compare us to countries like some of the third world nations around the world where people still live in houses made of wood and straw and mud.  That's simply absrd.

@Arthyron and AoM: http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/ill-o14.shtml
and there's more if you don't like the socialist web page.
And @AoM, this is the way i feel about things and not a mud slide.

Less illiterate people does NOT mean less crime.  Knowledge is independent of morality.  There are plenty of intelligent and well-learned people in the world that would kill a  child without a second thought.

Yes, it does.There are always exceptions to the rule.But the rule still remains the same.

Oh I see what it's about.  Now it's about politics, and not about guns.  I knew there was a hidden agenda in there somewhere.  Why don't you mind your own business and stick to YOUR country and not tell me what to do? How about that?  What does my president have to do with the topic of guns?  Nothing.  So keep this about guns or don't talk at all.  I'm sick of Europeans acting like they have all the right answers and know everything about my nation's government, how it works, and how it "should" be run.    We're responsible with our firearms sales.  Can you say the same for your government?

My dear Arthyron, EVERYTHING is politics.Sooner or later you'll realise it.
There's no hidden agenda.Why should there be one? I speak my mind freely, cause that's what i was taught to do.I have no problem sticking to my country if you stick to yours- which you don't- so what would you expect? People watching indifferently hell breaking loose?
Ha! Not in a million years.
Our government is to laugh about and i have no problem stating this. But our government
doesn't sell guns.It just offers its ass to countries like yours.

Guess who's selling the guns to criminals?  Not the USA.  It's all the other countries in the world that are selling their former military weapons to shady people who are then selling the weapons on the black market to criminals.

This is just hilarious!
 I thought this could be an intelligent exchanging of ideas and opinions but you obviously resent anybody who doesn't agree with you and tends to think otherwise - although it was you who asked for different options - and now you're offended, wrapped in your self righteousness .But you know what? self righteousness is what keeps a person aloof.

[Metalmaiden]

(10/17 post -  moved to this thread)

 So what do you propose should be done then, hmm?  Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative.  

Education and enlightenment.

Adjustment of moral and ethical understanding (will automatically come along with education).

[Fighting fire with fire is not the one and only option. If you shoot someone trying to rob you, has this prevented a crime for the better?

This is a really difficult field, I think. I absolutely scorn criminals, but who am I to say that they are worth less than myself just because they are stupid and uneducated? Of course I also want to protect myself, but I just don't think this is the best direction to go...  :?

Wow!  Absolutely tough subject!! I  agree with every one of you on this subject. In a perfect worlds I feel one way but, alas, this is not a perfect world.It would be nice to get rid of all the guns, but man would still be violent....and its  seems impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.

First and foremost  for me its Peace, Love & Understanding.
Unfortunately, until people stop coveting their neighbors wife/cow/land/natural resources or violently imposing their beliefs on others  we have to protect ourselves and those who can't protect themselves.  It would be nice if wits alone would work and we could talk people out of their attack but if deadly force is used on me I will protect the life of my family with deadly force. And it takes preparation to be able to do that. whether its martial arts  or firearms training.  While I never WANT to have to use it it would be naive to think it can never happen. I think history has taught us this lesson quite well.

One of those contemplative questions I have always thought about was --- If you had a gun put to your head and the person holding it was "forcing" you to do something horrible  what would you do. So many people say they were "forced" to do something as an excuse for bad behavior. Even with a gun to your head you still have a choice. I want to believe I'd have the strength to make the choice of sacrificing myself and not doing the heinous act  even though it may have meant  saving myself.