Guns guns guns

[Metalmaiden]

Please people don't take others opinions personally. I see no  finger pointing directed at any of us personally. Our our opinions are based on what we see, hear, read and what information we have access to.  What we give weight to as TRUE and THE FACTS varies with what we use to support them. Statistics can be manipulated to show whatever we want to prove!! If you believe Michael Moore (and I do not - my opinion he  is a master manipulator and inflamer)  you can never use his "facts" to support your argument to one who doesn't  believe  in the truth of those facts.

I find most interesting in this conversation, as with other controversial ones we've had on the boards,  is what sources people site. What people from different counties have as their sources and why and what they believe as fact, about themselves and about other people and other countries.  we do not seem to have  impeachable sources we all  share and value. And we all find it hard to allow others to question those sources.  Instead of digging in my heels and fighting I try to understand why and where the other person is coming from.  

I learn more from the exchange of ideas and expanding my horizons and seeing other points of view  rather than me becoming a flaming hot head trying to win an argument that can never be won.

[AngelOfMusic]

Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.

EXCUSE ME???  I see the mud-slinging has begun.  :roll:  You know what?  Even educated people murder others.  Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women.  The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women!  Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.

I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.

You know, we ARE on the same wavelength, AoP, but we're on different sides of a viewpoint.  The point was, someone equated less education with more violence.  I used those examples to illustrate that less education does NOT mean greater chance for violence.  Something you obviously understand, but you apparently didn't interpret my post as doing that.

This btw is a problem that won't be solved in the near future anywhere all over the world. It is a sad and unavoidable fact that jobs for low-educated people are becoming less and lesser day by day. This will lead to poverty which might lead to envy and both of them can lead to that kind of crime.

I agree, it won't be solved over night.  Like I said, we ARE on the same wavelength.  I don't think you realized that.  It is harder to get a job if you've only got a high school diploma.  A person also gets less pay than one with a college education.  Conversely, some places won't hire you if you have too much education.  Granted, this is less common than people with less education not getting a job, but I think it only fair to point out both scenarios.

But again: I think that a major problem in this whole issue is that Americans are confronted with crime and violence differently from people in other countries which makes them believe they have to protect themselves that way.

To an extent, we are.  All the past presidents, and all future presidents (at least until the US is no longer a major force in the world) face this problem: Some countries will test our leader to see if he is weak-willed.  This testing is to see what they might be able to do to bring down what they see as a major world threat.  Our current president wasn't aware enough when 9/11 happened, and now he's overcompensating.  What we need is a strong leader who can guage best when force is needed, and when diplomacy is needed.  

But this desire for protection isn't because we're afraid of being invaded, no!  This desire for protection is protection from our own countrymen!  That's what I've been going on about.  Most violent criminals know that the average person does not carry a gun.  They do use that to their advantage.

One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example.

No one is saying that guns should be easily available.  In fact, if you've been paying attention, the argument that both Arthyron and I have presented is that everyone who wants to legally own a gun has to own a gun permit, which requries registration at the courthouse.  From there, they run background checks on you.  Then, the government is notified that you own a gun.  Criminal offenders cannot legally own a gun.  If you have a criminal record, you are by law prohibited from owning a gun.

But not everyone goes through the legal process to get a gun.  The aforementioned people with criminal records know they can't have one legally, so they get them illegally.

One more thing: I believe it is nothing more than a pseudo-argument that the easy availabilty of weapons could prevent street robbery for example. Quite simple thought: A guy with a gun in his hand is standing behind you (or in front of you) and asks you to pass over your purse slowly. You try to reach the gun you hide under your jacket and pull it out and just in that moment the robber pulls the trigger.
Until everyone's allowed to have a loaded automatic assault rifle with them clearly visible, the chance that one might perhaps wear a weapon is hardly to be considered a scare-off.
And when it's not a scare-off, what's it useful for then? As written above: Do you really think you could pull out and slacken a weapon without the robber actually realising? That guy would surely have to have serious alcohol and drug problems if so. And even if you could pull it out and slacken it: What makes you believe you would actually shoot faster and aim better than the guy in front of you or in your back? It's for sure a nice thing to hit the target on a shooting range, but the situation isn't comparable in a situation like a robbery.

You're assuming that I think guns are fool-proof defenses.  I really hope you don't think negatively  of my intelligence, AoP.  :P  In situations where you have no opportunity to defend yourself, you don't have much choice but to hand over your purse/money/wallet and pray.  But that's my point in bringing up concealed-carry laws.  If the robber thinks you might have a weapon, is s/he still going to rob you when their own life might be at stake?  They don't know who is packing heat and who isn't.  Sometimes a person does NOT have time to defend themselves, but for some criminals, just the knowledge that they might get hurt is enough to deter them.  Again, I recognise that this is not a foolproof measure of protection.  But it is something to think about.  

Also, you're only thinking of one situation.  What if someone breaks into your house and they have a gun?  You hear them coming, so you have time to load up your gun and get behind the bed/overturned table/tv/etc...and call out "I have a gun!"  They might believe you and, as I said earlier, leave.  Or, they might assume you're bluffing and come in anyway.  You already have your gun at the ready.  You've warned them, but they still come.  From there, you are within your rights to protect yourself, your home and your family by shooting the person who chose to violate the safety of your home and put you at risk.  

And while you might not hit them fatally (I'd rather NOT kill anyone), most homes are small enough that you will hit your target without having to take the time to sight down the gun.

Seriously, I never believed this whole pro-gun-argumentation. Again I refer to Moore who had a pretty good example in "Bowling...": Where do you draw the line? Should it be legal to own an A- or H-bomb for a civilian? Or a tank? Or C4? No? Why not? These can as well be used for self defense - against whomever.

Conversely, where do you draw the line for what people should not have?  So suddenly no one in the US is allowed to legally own guns.  Yet you still have all those violent criminal offenders who DO have guns.  Firstly: You've now made criminals out of previously law-abiding citizens who don't want to give up their firearms, and secondly: you've now left a nation full of innocent people with less defense against home-invasion.  Again, no defense is foolproof, but if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night when I'm home alone, I'd rather not be caught cowering like a scared rabbit.[/quote]

[Odin]

Educate the illiterate (you have the most illiterate people in the whole world). Less illiterate people means less crime.

EXCUSE ME???  I see the mud-slinging has begun.  :roll:  You know what?  Even educated people murder others.  Ted Bundy was educated, intelligent, handsome and charming, and that man murdered quite a few women.  The BTK killer, who menaced the midwestern US (Kansas area) for 30 years was a college graduate who worked in SECURITY, was married and had two children, and he killed at least 10 women!  Inability to read is NOT a determinant of deviant behavior.

I think we're talking about different issues here. A serial killer is not the usual case when someone's killed by a gun (though I read a while ago the FBI expects about 200 of them still around all over the country) - especially because most of them just don't kill their victims with firearms as most of them consider them to be very plump weapons. Of course do even smart and educated people kill others. I think dj's thoughts were more about that kind of crime legal weapon owners seem to believe they have to protect themselves against. And I have to share that believe though I wouldn't relate it to illiteracy but definitely to low education which is btw again not a typical US-problem.

You know, we ARE on the same wavelength, AoP, but we're on different sides of a viewpoint.  The point was, someone equated less education with more violence.  I used those examples to illustrate that less education does NOT mean greater chance for violence.  Something you obviously understand, but you apparently didn't interpret my post as doing that.

Education of course is NO CURE for metal illness.  :roll:  How large is the rate of psycho-killers? Only because they stand out with the number of victims and their presence in the media does not mean they are any kind of majority. They are not the criminals we are talking about.

And "education" does not mean nerds, technically or on whatever field skilled and highly educated people! I mean social and ethical education and enlightenment. From today's world this ideal seems pretty far away, granted, but a solid general education and some more focus on really important topics (that EXCLUDES any material things, commerce, holdings, but includes to know the basics and ideas behind these topics like capitalism & Co) will save people from falling into despair and no-way-out-feelings and the need to become criminal.

Remember the era of enlightenment - I think we need a major refresh and sequel.


...and to add this: I do not refer to US gun rights or whatsoever, I am talking about principals. I am talking about the fact that a gun can not do any good, n e v e r. A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.

And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.

And a last one to Arthyron and DJ: Please, calm down, it's nothing personal involved here. I really enjoy this discussion, because we are basically not fingerpointing or so, but covering a tough topic of global interest. And we have proven before that we can have heated discussions without the use of mud or such.

[AngelOfMusic]

And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.

Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know.  They are also hunting tools.  I used to go hunting alot.  I got tired of freezing my ass off during the winter just waiting for a deer to come along, though.  (Deer meat is a staple food in our home.)

But as for whether or not I'm willing to use it for the purpose of killing someone:  Yes, IF it comes down to killing an attacker to save my own life, or the life of my loved ones.  But God willing, I'll never be put in a situation where I'll have to find out if I truly would shoot anyone.  The same goes for my self-defense training - I don't want to ever be in a situation where I may have to physically hurt someone else just to keep from getting raped.  It's good to know self-defense techniques, but hopefully I won't ever have to use them.

[Prab]

A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.

Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know.

I think Odin was talking about "killing" in general.
Guns were created for the one purpose of killing.
No matter if animal or man.

Just my two cents.
I'm reading all of this!
Can't find the right timing and right words to join, that's all.

Greetz
Prab

[AngelOfMusic]

A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.

Guns aren't made only for killing people, you know.

I think Odin was talking about "killing" in general.
Guns were created for the one purpose of killing.
No matter if animal or man.

Just my two cents.
I'm reading all of this!
Can't find the right timing and right words to join, that's all.

Greetz
Prab

Most people think only for people, but yeah, I gocha.

Well, there's alot that's been covered, and alot to comment on if you're just joining in, I'm sure.  Just jump in when you find something that really gets you, I guess.

[dorian jane]

@Odin: No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked  from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history  through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.

.
@AoM:I teach.I drag my sources from my pupils.Trust me when i say this, education means ethics and good manners.Pupils who are indifferent, have none of the above.Pupils who study, differ a lot. There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.
Btw,have you ever tried bow hunting? Like Ted Nudgent? It's much more fun than killing an animal with a gun - and much healthier.

[AngelOfMusic]

@Odin: No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked  from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history  through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.

.
@AoM:I teach.I drag my sources from my pupils.Trust me when i say this, education means ethics and good manners.Pupils who are indifferent, have none of the above.Pupils who study, differ a lot. There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.
Btw,have you ever tried bow hunting? Like Ted Nudgent? It's much more fun than killing an animal with a gun - and much healthier.

You teach in a Greek school system.  In Europe.  So you're getting a European perspective on the USA.  Hardly accurate unless any of your students have lived here.  In fact, you yourself have never lived here.  So I'll thank you to stop making gross generalizations about my country, or it's people.

We base our history through war and mayhem?  Okay,  So I can just assume Europe isn't rich in warfare and bloodshed then?  How many wars has Europe had?  It sure is convenient of you to ignore Europe's history of warfare and focus on ours.

And don't you DARE insinuate that I (or any other US citizen, for that matter) have forgotten my European bloodlines.  I'm Swedish by blood and DAMNED proud of it too.  But I am not Swedish by birth.  And to claim that I am would be dishonest.  In fact, MANY Americans love to talk about what European bloodlines they have.  But then, you don't live here, so how could you know that?

"feel naked without a gun"  EXCUSE ME?  The only time I ever have a gun on me is when I'm at the shooting range.  It's illegal in Illinois to carry concealed weapons unless you're a police officer.  I go about my day to day life without any official weapons.  

As for the bow hunting question:
I'm not strong enough to pull the required weight for compound-bow hunting.

Which brings me to my next point:  A bow an arrow is a weapon.  Just like a gun is a weapon.  Both were made for the express purpose of killing.  So why is bow and arrow okay, but guns are not?

[Arthyron]

I'm afraid i wasn't joking. I have watched many of his documentaries and he doesn't seem fraudulent to me. And what on earth would he be hiding? and from whom? Documentaries are based on facts and his annoyed too many people , didn't they? I haven't seen anybody taking the stand and contradicting any of his documentaries.If you can prove otherwise, please do so.

Wow, then you are just about the most gullible person on earth if you can trust in what Michael Moore has to say.  Just google for something like "Michael Moore rebuttal."  There's hundreds of websites, counter documentaries, and statistics to prove him wrong.  In Fahrenheit 9/11 alone, there were over 50 direct falsehoods.   I honestly don't know how you can miss the incredulity of his arguments, his alterior motives, his general dishonesty.  He hates everything to do with traditional America, and wants nothing more than for socialism to reign.  I'm busy working on things (being a college student is hectic), so I don't have time to dig up all the counter-arguments to his propaganda, but you're quite capable of using google yourself.  Go for it.

Sorry Arthyron, i do not see it that way.As i said, produced guns need to be sold.Sooner or later they come to the hands of those you do not want to own one.Weapon industries don't mind that.It's trade after all, isn't it? But people should care.What if technology made weapons safer to the user? Can it make weapons safer for the potential victim?
I guess not.That's not the point in making weapons , is it?

Yeah, and what if they're sold to law-abiding citizens?  The people that FOLLOW RULES, the people that USE GUNS CORRECTLY, other than the event that their guns are stolen, are not going to end up with their guns going to criminals.  The guns that end up on the black market are acquired by criminals, stolen, or sold by unscrupulous military or former military pesonnel.  Once again, the people who use guns correctly, and those that produce them for people who use them correctly do not have guns that end up in the hands of criminals.

Martial arts do make a difference.I didn't have the chance to take a course but i had a friend who used to be an instructor/soldier in the Foreign Legion and who taught me how to kill a person with my two bare hands in 6 seconds. But,i guess it's easier to use a gun rather than sweating in order to make a weapon out of your body.

I don't like the fact that guns are used instead of hand to hand combat any more than you do.  If that were the case, I'd have a HUGE advantage over 90% of the world's population.  But the FACT of the matter is that criminals don't care about honor.  They want what works.  Weapons work, and guns are the best weapons, so they use them.  They're quick, they're easy, they're concealable.  As long as criminals have guns, citizens should be able to as well in order to even out the odds.  If you don't WANT to carry a gun, fine, don't.  But don't tell me I can't.  As long as the US Constitution exists, I will be able to own a gun for the protection of myself and my family.  And if I don't have a gun (which I rarely do, I dont' even carry one on me, because my city is a relatively save one), fine.  I can kill most people with my bare hands anyway.  And I'd like to see you try this "6 second kill" technique on a guy like me.  You'd get your butt handed to you.  All those little tricks are nonsense.  All that matters in a real fight is experience, toughness, resourcefulness, and a little bit of luck.  If you try martial arts moves in a real fight you will lose.  If you've ever watched a martial artist in a REAL fight, if they win, it's not because of martial arts.  Watch a video sometime of real fights.  I guarantee you won't see stances and complex hand movements and structured forms.  You'll see flailing arms, legs, and 90% of the time they'll end up on the ground rolling around with each other.  That's the reality of fighting.

@Arthyron and AoM: http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/ill-o14.shtml
and there's more if you don't like the socialist web page.
And @AoM, this is the way i feel about things and not a mud slide.

Yeah, because a Socialist news site is certainly reliable when it comes to statistics concerning the bastion of Capitalism. That article is complete nonsense.  Notice they don't show any references for their statistics.  They might as well be making them up at random.  Show me a credible source for once.

Yes, it does.There are always exceptions to the rule.But the rule still remains the same.

And since when was this a rule.  How come I wasn't told about this "rule" of your's?  Once again, making claims without backing it up with real facts.  Basically, it's my word vs. your's, and so far your credibility as far as facts and statistics has been about 0.

My dear Arthyron, EVERYTHING is politics.Sooner or later you'll realise it.
There's no hidden agenda.Why should there be one? I speak my mind freely, cause that's what i was taught to do.I have no problem sticking to my country if you stick to yours- which you don't- so what would you expect? People watching indifferently hell breaking loose?
Ha! Not in a million years.
Our government is to laugh about and i have no problem stating this. But our government
doesn't sell guns.It just offers its ass to countries like yours.

No, this was a topic of discussion about firearms, and you had to throw in your opinions on wars and country invasions and all that BS.  That's the real issue here.  You're just another one of those ignorant Europeans (thankfully i know some level-headed Europeans that aren't so quick to judge) who jumps on the Anti-USA bandwagon because it's what everyone else is doing.  You have no concept of what my nation is like, and it's amazing to see you say things like "if you stick to your's, but you don't."  Let me tell you something:  I AM NOT MY GOVERNMENT'S MILITARY.  I didn't vote to go to Iraq, Congress did.  If you don't like it fine, a lot of US don't like it either, but that's what the government decided to do.  I WAS sticking to my country, but then the Europeans couldn't keep their mouths shut, and had to go spewing their anti-firearm rhetoric.  We are different countries.  What works for you does not neccesarily work for us and vice versa.  I never asked you to buy or carry a gun, so I'll be damned if I'm gonna let you sit there and tell me why I shouldn't when the facts clearly prove you wrong.  I was fine sticking to my country, but YOU guys are the ones that had to open your mouth about things which you don't even know anything about (firearms, firearms as they pertain to the average United States citizen, Firearm safety, etc) If you don't want trouble with me, then don't start it.  I don't tell you how to run things in wherever the heck it is you're from, so don't tell me what i should/should not do in my own country.  And once again, to reiterate:  I AM NOT MY GOVERNMENT'S MILITARY.  So stop putting all your anti-war biases on me.  I didn't give the order to invade Iraq.  My country's actions abroad have NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, so keep your international politics to yourself.

This is just hilarious!
 I thought this could be an intelligent exchanging of ideas and opinions but you obviously resent anybody who doesn't agree with you and tends to think otherwise - although it was you who asked for different options - and now you're offended, wrapped in your self righteousness .But you know what? self righteousness is what keeps a person aloof.

I fail to see where I asked for your opinion.  I could care less what you have to say regarding my nation.  You do not live in the United States.  You have not lived among our people, walked our streets, so you are in NO place to judge us.  Yes, I obviously just abandon all logic and reason and resent you all.  :roll: That's why I presented facts and logical arguments to back up what i have to say, instead of spewing Socalist rhetoric and citing such wonderful, credible sources like Michael Moore.  Please, that's just absurd.  How am I being self-righteous? Show me an example.  You can sit there and try and insult me all you want, but it's all irrelavent if you can't give an example of these supposed traits I carry.  I've been called a right wing conservative fundamentalist wacko in some forums.  No matter what you call me, if you can't back up your accusations, then they're useless.  Do you even know what self-righteousness is? Hmm?  Not once did I suggest my country was better than anyone else's.  Not once did I claim myself superior to anyone else (other than in body size).  Not once did I even suggest that my way is the superior way.  I'm speaking PURELY about America, and American facts and figures.  As I said, I could care less about how things are run in your country, because that works for you.  But that won't neccesarily do the job for my country.

...and to add this: I do not refer to US gun rights or whatsoever, I am talking about principals. I am talking about the fact that a gun can not do any good, n e v e r. A gun is a thing made for one fucking purpose, no general tool.

Oh, have you ever done any recreational shooting?  Didn't think so.  Clearly you've never been to a shooting range or a competition.  Guns are GREAT for recreation if people use them with the proper precautions and safety measures.  For instance, my brother got married back in May.  For his bachelor party (where all the men in the family and a few friends go out or do things together without the women), we went to a shooting range and got to shoot all kinds of guns at targets.  We got to fire full automatic machine guns and all sorts of neat things.  In that instance, the gun created enjoyment, fun, bonding between the men, as well as a memory that will last a lifetime.  A gun doesn't have to always be used to kill a person or an animal.

So if a woman is approached by a man on the street, and he pulls out a knife and threatens her, and she pulls out a gun, and he runs away, you're telling me that is not a good thing?  I fail to see how that's anything but a good thing.  So clearly, good CAN come from guns if they're used appropriately.

And I just remembered this quote (not literally): Do never draw a gun, if you are not willing to use it and never use a gun, if you are not willing to kill someone.

I agree.  But, there are many people (myself included) who WOULD use a gun if neccesary.  If someone is threatening my life or the life of someone I love (especially in the second case), I would do anything neccesary to stop them, and that includes killing them if that's what needs to be done.

And a last one to Arthyron and DJ: Please, calm down, it's nothing personal involved here. Smile I really enjoy this discussion, because we are basically not fingerpointing or so, but covering a tough topic of global interest. And we have proven before that we can have heated discussions without the use of mud or such.

I never lose my composure on the internet.  The only things that can drive me to anger are endangering my family/friends/loved ones, abusing your power,  and deliberate violations of chivalry.  It's nearly impossible to do those things online, so you don't have to worry about me getting angry.    But cleary ms. Jane doesn't feel the same.  Since apparently, according to her we aren't having a logical discussion.

No need for me to calm down- i wasn't angry in the first place, just shocked from what i read - not mud slinging anybody-no need for that.
I seem to irritate some people in here though- well , i can't do anything about that.I'm speaking my mind.If some find my thoughts unpleasant, they can always ignore me.But i won't let anybody insult my intelligence. Or call me ignorant.I won't have it from people who try to make their own history through war and meyhem ,who feel naked without a gun, who stick their noses where they're not supposed to and who tend to forget that their ancestors were Europeans.
I'm not able to change beliefs.. But i won't pamper anybody either.

This paragraphis chock full of inconsistencies, and deliberate and obvious biases.  I mean you start off with "yeah, no need for mudslinging."  But what did you do earlier?  Oh right, you called me self-righteous and blind.  So much for that little bit of hypocrisy.  First off, "make their own history through war and mayhem."  That's an ignorant statement.  Every nation, your's included, had made it's history through war and mayhem.  No nation is free of this ideal, because war and conflict are in humanity's nature.  So don't  you dare insinuate that America is the only nation that has ever been involved in war.  Keep in mind the many wars in which we did good.  If it was not for our involvement in WW2, Europe might have been overrun by the Third Reich.  But as I said, this discussion has nothing to do with WARS, so shut up about foreign policies and wars, they have nothing to do with the discussion of civilian firearm usage. And as I said earlier, regardless of how you feel about my country's actions in the Middle East, I'm not the one over there.  I didn't ever tell anyone to go over there.  So stop projecting my government's actions on me.  I didn't make that decision.  Then there's "people who feel naked without a gun."  I don't feel naked without a gun at all.  I've never carried one in public.  The most public place I've had a gun with me is when my friends and I were in the woods and forests.  This just goes to prove your biases against the US citizens, insinuating that we're all packing heat everywhere we go.  That just goes to show you're blinded by stereotypes.  I have guns in my house, but I don't take them with me.  As I said, I live in a relatively safe city, and seldom do I run into anything, much less anything I can't take care of with my bare hands.  I didn't stick my nose anywhere.  If anything, it was other Europeans who were the ones who started with the anti-gun rhetoric.  Instead of voicing your political concerns, you could have just realized that America is different from you, and thought "well, guns are more common there because their culture is different, so I don't need to say anyting or place my nation's cultural restrictions on them."  But no, you chose to argue why guns are bad.  You're in a box of your own making.  Lastly, only some of my ancestors were European.  Some of them were Native Americans as well.  And once again, my ancestry has NOTHING to do with the argument at hand, so drop the pretentious, irrelavent nonsense and stick to the topic at hand.

[dorian jane]

And I'd like to see you try this "6 second kill" technique on a guy like me.  You'd get your butt handed to you.  All those little tricks are nonsense.

 
Well, as a matter of fact,i practiced on a couple of guys like you.I couldn't believe it would work, but it did. It's not nonsense.
 

yeah, because a Socialist news site is certainly reliable when it comes to statistics concerning the bastion of Capitalism. That article is complete nonsense.  Notice they don't show any references for their statistics.  They might as well be making them up at random.  Show me a credible source for once.

Haha what was i thinking? You finding me or the article credible? :roll: Btw, i'm not a socialist, at least not in the way you regard socialists.

First of all,i never told you not to use guns.Go ahead, use all the guns you want.
The fact you don't seem to comprehend is that you haven't had an actual war going on in your country (save me from a speech regarding the civil war or Pearl Harbor) It feels good to fight in other countries and not facing actual danger.It feels good to destroy while you remain intact.
Europe has suffered a lot.My country suffered a lot. That's why we're so against guns and war.We know what it's like.
But hey! don't even try to compare my country and the wars we fought through the time
with your country's wars.My country has been subjected to a 1000 years occupation.The Romans, the Francs,the Turks,the Bulgarians,the Italians, the Germans...and before all that it was the Persians.Don't get me started man...
Have you ever heard about the dictatorship in Hellas? It was the Americans who helped the generals impose it upon my people.I was there.I don't expect you to accept this, but it's history, it is the truth no matter what you say or do.And the only reason i mention this is just to show that you always stick your noses where you shouldn't.Yugoslavia is a recent example.Your government deciding about the Makedonian issue is another.This has nothing to do with you,so you butt out.Iraq is the least of my concerns, believe me.
Now maybe you see things from where i stand.I believe i'm entitled to feel pissed off.
.
Me calling you names?  ..Ignorant, gullible,inconsistent,deliberately and obviously biased ,a hypocrit,telling me to shut up.. wasn't you the one who addressed to me in such a way?  

I fail to see where I asked for your opinion.

So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative

This is where you asked for alternatives and opinions.I didn't know i wasn't included.

[dorian jane]

You teach in a Greek school system.  In Europe.  So you're getting a European perspective on the USA.  Hardly accurate unless any of your students have lived here.  In fact, you yourself have never lived here.  So I'll thank you to stop making gross generalizations about my country, or it's people.

Exactly as you're getting an American perspective on Europe.Gross generalizations about your country and its people? What have you been doing here?

As for the bow hunting question:
I'm not strong enough to pull the required weight for compound-bow hunting.
Which brings me to my next point:  A bow an arrow is a weapon.  Just like a gun is a weapon.  Both were made for the express purpose of killing.  So why is bow and arrow okay, but guns are not?

Read your post, the answer is obvious..

[BaronRojo]

There's a thin line there...once you cross it , you're never the same person again.

 :wink:

[Arthyron]

Well, as a matter of fact,i practiced on a couple of guys like you.I couldn't believe it would work, but it did. It's not nonsense.

So you killed them?! :p  Notice the word you used:  PRACTICE.  You've never used it in a real application.  I'd like to see you try it on someone when they're trying to do horrible things to you, in the thick of a fight for your life when you can't think and you're acting purely on reflex and adrenaline.  All the "practicing" a move is worthless when you're in a real situation.  All those "guys like me" that let you do that to them LET you do that to them.  It's a big difference when the guy's got you in an arm-lock or a bear hug.  I'm still skeptical on any move that any person can use to drop someone in 6 seconds.  If it was that easy, everyone would use it, especially professional martial artists and fighters like in the UFC or any number of the fighting organizations around the world.
 

Haha what was i thinking? You finding me or the article credible? :roll: Btw, i'm not a socialist, at least not in the way you regard socialists.

Then don't quote socialist websites in regards to a capitalist society.  It's pretty much common sense.

First of all,i never told you not to use guns.Go ahead, use all the guns you want.
The fact you don't seem to comprehend is that you haven't had an actual war going on in your country (save me from a speech regarding the civil war or Pearl Harbor) It feels good to fight in other countries and not facing actual danger.It feels good to destroy while you remain intact.

What does the fact that my nation's government has done a good job of keeping my country (and many other countries) safe have to do with anything?  We've remained safe because our country's government does its job well.  I fail to see why you find this a negative aspect.  And once again, you're trying to put words in my mouth and attribute the actions of my nation's military to ME.  Get it through your thick skull that I am not part of my nation's military.  I don't like fighting in other countries, I don't like that soldiers have to kill people, I don't like that they destroy lives.  Sometimes wars MUST be fought.  Regardless of whether or not you believe the current war should be fought, the people who are fighting clearly believe that they need to be.  Who are you to judge them?  And yes, this is the ideal situation in a war, but keep in mind Al Qaeda hit us first, sister.  None of us felt good on September 11, 2001.  One of my friends lost her Uncle in that attack.  You talk so much about how my country is and how my country works, when you CLEARLY have no concept of the reality of my country at all.  Do us all a favor and stop talking about something you clearly have no concept of.  And seriously, shut up about wars and countries and all that nonsense.  That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  If you want to bitch about America's foreign policy, create a new thread.  That's not what this one is about.

Europe has suffered a lot.My country suffered a lot. That's why we're so against guns and war.We know what it's like.

BS.  When have you EVER faced a war.  When have you ever had bullets whizzing past your head or had to hide from armed gunmen?  Hmm?  That's like the African Americans complaing about slavery when none of them have ever been slaves.  You are being extremely pretentious acting like your country is the only one that's ever experienced war.  What about the Revolutionary War, what about the Spanish American War?  What about the French Indian War?  What about the Civil War? All of them were fought on American soil in times far more recent than most of the wars that affected your nation.  We know what war is like too, and that's exactly why we keep our guns.  Did it ever occur to you that crap like that doesn't happen in our nation because our civilians are protected beyond what the police are able to offer?  

But hey! don't even try to compare my country and the wars we fought through the time
with your country's wars.My country has been subjected to a 1000 years occupation.The Romans, the Francs,the Turks,the Bulgarians,the Italians, the Germans...and before all that it was the Persians.Don't get me started man...

Don't get ME started.  You forget that before we were Americans, we were many other things. Let's start with the Native Americans.  The French, the Spanish, the English, many more European nations subjugated, tortured, killed, maimed, and destroyed my people, forcing them to live on small reservatory lands which are stricken with poverty and sickness and crime.  The Irish were raided by the vikings and many other nations for hundreds of years being raped, pillaged, and slaughtered.  Not to menion the horrible famine that Ireland was struck with, which is the main cause of migration and immigration of the Irish people.  The Scottish were subjugated by the Roman Empire just as long as Greece was, and its people treated FAR worse.  Eventually they built a wall stretching across the northern part of Britain (Hadrian's wall) to keep the Scots (they were called the Picts then) out.  The only part of my ancestry that hasn't had the crap kicked out of them are the Norwegians.  But thanks to unscrupulous missionaries, their entire culture was made criminal and nearly wiped out, for the sake of European Catholicism.  Sure Greece has had it's problems, but given my diverse heritage, I've got you beat if you wanna play that game.  But I'd rather not get into a pissing contest, I'll save you the same of defeat.

Have you ever heard about the dictatorship in Hellas? It was the Americans who helped the generals impose it upon my people.I was there.I don't expect you to accept this, but it's history, it is the truth no matter what you say or do.And the only reason i mention this is just to show that you always stick your noses where you shouldn't.Yugoslavia is a recent example.Your government deciding about the Makedonian issue is another.This has nothing to do with you,so you butt out.Iraq is the least of my concerns, believe me.
Now maybe you see things from where i stand.I believe i'm entitled to feel pissed off.
.

You're telling ME to butt out.  Why are you still bitching and moaning about things saying "you you you you" and then say "this has nothing to do with you?" Clearly I've shown that I'm not involved in any of those things.  But regardless of it all.  What the heck is your problem, why can't you keep your bitter political problems quiet?  They don't MATTER here.  This isn't about international relations, this is about guns, in the united states.  As I said, if you want to whine about politics, you're welcome to make a new thread, but keep your whining elsewhere.  It has no place here.  And for pete sake, get it through your head that I'm not responsible for the crap my country has done in the past and stop referring to me as my country.  I am not my country.  I am not my country's military.  I am not my country's government.  Deal with it.

Me calling you names?  ..Ignorant, gullible,inconsistent,deliberately and obviously biased ,a hypocrit,telling me to shut up.. wasn't you the one who addressed to me in such a way?  

The difference is, you claimed you hadn't done any "name calling", which is clearly not the case.  I don't call people things that don't make logical sense.  Everything I said had a logical component backing it up.  I'm still waiting for logical evidence of my supposed "self righteousness" you were rambling about.  See the difference?  My words made sense, and were used in the correct context due to things you said, which I pointed out.  Your words were hollow attempts at insults, because you ran out of logical reasons and evidence to combat my arguments, and couldn't even back up your insults.  There's the difference.

I fail to see where I asked for your opinion.

So what do you propose should be done then, hmm? Great, you don't like guns, show me a better alternative

This is where you asked for alternatives and opinions.I didn't know i wasn't included.[/quote]

I didn't ask for opinions on random things that have nothing to do with guns.  I asked for other plausible solutions to the gun problem.  I have yet to see you offer up any jewels of wisdom other than neo-socialist, anti USA political nonsense, and bitter, insipid ramblings.  Come back when you have something worthwhile to say, and evidence to back it up.

[AngelOfMusic]

I'm getting about tired of the whole debate.  My parting comment is simply going to be this:

What works for Euorpe will not necissarily work for the USA.  Guns are not a guarantee of safety, but they are also not a guarantee of death. Guns or no, there are many great things about the USA, just as there are many great things about Europe.  BOTH the US and Europe have histories seeped in bloodshed.  Both have their shair of ethnocentric people.  Similarities and differences abound.  It's recognising and accepting BOTH similarities and differences that will solve the current mess that this thread has become.  

Provided it doesn't get locked first.

And sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree.

[Odin]

Well put, AoM, thanks.

So, to get back to my recent request, if the two of you (Arthyron, Dorian Jane) want to continue on the details of your internal discussion, please take it to PM or e-mail. It's not that productive for the public here anymore, sorry.