Autor Thema: Halloween  (Gelesen 5477 mal)

Souleraser

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Halloween
« am: Oktober 31, 2004, 10:40:52 Vormittag »
Zitat von: "shadowman"
Cool shots !!
We don't have that Halloween hype over here (yet) but I know Americans love that kind of stuff...


Hm, I live in a village with about 8500 people and for about 2 or 3 years we have children walking around and begging for candy on October, 31st.
Honestly, I can only agree with you - I'm not into Halloween at all.
And what is even more sad: The pilgrims took one very old pre-christian german tradition with them, altered it a bit and now we're about to re-import the altered and commercial new version of that feast.

Metalmaiden

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Halloween
« Antwort #1 am: November 01, 2004, 04:36:51 Vormittag »
Zitat von: "The Seeker"
.....And what is even more sad: The pilgrims took one very old pre-christian german tradition with them, altered it a bit and now we're about to re-import the altered and commercial new version of that feast.


Are you thinking of our Thanksgiving perhaps? A yearly festival giving  thanking for abundent harvest.

Halloween is Celtic in origin. Their summer began on May 1 (Beltane) and ended on Nov 1 (Samhain). They believed Samhain was a time when  the barriers between the natural and the supernatural are temporarily removed and all divine beings and the spirits of the dead move freely among men. It is also All Hallow's Eve which is the night before All Saints Day in certain Christian religions here.

Sorry to export more tasteless crap your way but its fun for kids to dress up and pretend. Its an excuse for adults to dressup and have parties.  Anyone who comes to our door that night; kids get candy, adults get beer, what's wrong with that?:lol:

I guess you are mad about the Christmas Tree thing too??   :wink:

shadowman

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Halloween
« Antwort #2 am: November 01, 2004, 09:02:00 Vormittag »
Well I cannot speak in the Seekers name of course but as I told you it is a free world and if people find enjoyment in this I have nothing against it...

We have the tradition of Saint- Nikolaus on the 6th of december (not to be mistaken with Santa Claus at Christmas) where the children are being treated with candy and toys....
The children are convinced  it is, allow me to use the Dutch names
" Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet,"
bringing all the goodies but in reality of course it's poor mom and dad paying for everything... :roll:
And I guess the same commerce and publicity you Americans make for Halloween is the same for Saint-Nikolaus...

Check it out here :
http://www-astro.physics.ox.ac.uk/~erik/sint/sint.html

So, guess we are guilty ourselves... Perhaps this is also one of the reasons we are kind of reluctant to yet another attack on our wallets by lettting this Helloween thing conquer Western Europe... :?

Souleraser

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Halloween
« Antwort #3 am: November 01, 2004, 10:23:57 Vormittag »
Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

Are you thinking of our Thanksgiving perhaps? A yearly festival giving  thanking for abundent harvest.


No, thanksgiving has been there ever since though we don't celebrate it either - at least not outside of churches. I remember celebrating it when I was in kindergarten, but never again since then. That day never was as important to us as it was for Americans. And the date is usually different also if I'm not completely mistaken.

Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

Halloween is Celtic in origin.


Yes, and most likely it was the celtic feast that has been taken to America by the pilgrims. German tribes had a feast called "Asenblod" (might be something like "ancestors sacrifice"? Perhaps Tex can help out on that, because I honestly don't know) with the same dates. Everything was partially similar to the celtic celebrations and traditions, but still different.

Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

All Saints Day in certain Christian religions here.


Just like with us. I believe it is a high ranking catholic feast, because here in bavaria it is a holiday.
But another thing: the 31st of October is Reformation Day, one of the most important dates in the protestant calendar.

Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

Sorry to export more tasteless crap your way but its fun for kids to dress up and pretend. Its an excuse for adults to dressup and have parties.  Anyone who comes to our door that night; kids get candy, adults get beer, what's wrong with that?:lol:


I don't like leaving the house the morning after and finding my car wrapped in toilet paper, just because my family and I are not willing to support something which has been hyped and promoted by some TV programmes and clever industrialists who try to make money at every occasion. What I am pissed about is that this thing is becoming a damned fashion thing and no one here cares about the traditions and what is really related to that feast and that after all that day had no special meaning to us for many centuries or at least a completely different one. And of course: The obviously plain commercial aspect.

And about that dressing up thing... AFAIK you don't have a real carnival over there (besides Mardi Gras in New Orleans) - but we do. It takes place somewhen around February and March, children usually have one week off from school and many employers give their employees a few (usually monday and tuesday) days off also. People dressup, everyone gets sick - the adults because of alcohol and the children because of candy - and everyone (besides of people like me and those who have to work or just don't care at all) is all happy.
That time has heathen roots also - but it is a tradition that has been kept alive here during the past several centuries, completely different from "Halloween". Young children are being taught about our "carnival" and its traditions in primary school, they at least learn something about it - though most of them forget all that real soon again.

Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

I guess you are mad about the Christmas Tree thing too??   :wink:


Uh, not really, but I'm ineed mad because our "Christkind" has been widely replaced by "Father Christmas" or "Santa Claus" - and all that in the last 5 to 6 years, about the same period of time when Halloween made its way into our stores and the minds of those who are unable to think for themselves.

Please, don't get me wrong: I don't mind Americans (and all other countries where that day and this way to celebrate it  have their traditions) celebrating and loving Halloween. Go on and have fun with it.
But what I do mind is obviously being forced to participate and what I do mind is another plain commercial fashion waving over this country, leaving only devastation and aborted traditions behind. I don't like traditions so much after all - but I still prefer them to trends.
There's nothing wrong with people dressing up and children eating candy until they throw up (at least unless they throw up where I stand or live) and so on, but what feels wrong to me is the simple fact that once again my people are ready and willing to blindly follow every trend that is given to them - and the critics are either ignored or just not speaking oud loudly enough to stop that.

The Metal RN

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Halloween
« Antwort #4 am: November 01, 2004, 03:06:50 Nachmittag »
Zitat von: "The Seeker"


And about that dressing up thing... AFAIK you don't have a real carnival over there (besides Mardi Gras in New Orleans) - but we do. It takes place somewhen around February and March, children usually have one week off from school and many employers give their employees a few (usually monday and tuesday) days off also. People dressup, everyone gets sick - the adults because of alcohol and the children because of candy - and everyone (besides of people like me and those who have to work or just don't care at all) is all happy.


What is carnival exactly? I know that many counrties celebrate it and I am only slightly familiar with Mardi Gras. Please enlighten. As for traditions, I think that the comeercialization is a pain in the ass, but as I have gotten older and wiser, (ok you can all stop laughing now!) I have found that the excuse for visiting relatives and spending time with loved ones far outways all the crap that goes along with certain holidays. Also some of the traditions can be very comforting, sort of a certain pattern of our lives, I guess, my favorite thing about Christmas was the meal my mom would make on Christmas eve, wher would would all stop what we were doing and have a meal of seafood and  perogis. UMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Souleraser

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Halloween
« Antwort #5 am: November 01, 2004, 03:46:42 Nachmittag »
Zitat von: "The Metal RN"

What is carnival exactly? I know that many counrties celebrate it and I am only slightly familiar with Mardi Gras. Please enlighten.


Phew, I'm not that familiar with the details anymore also, but I'll try to get together all I can remember. The tradition of carnival is quite old and heathen as mentioned already. People were scared of evil demons and ghosts coming to their houses and settlements and somehow the idea came up it would be a good idea to dress as scary as possible to keep the evil away. Therefore, people dressed as witches or ghosts or something like that in that particular time of the year (I can't remember for what reason the date was chosen, it doesn't really have a fixed date after all) and went out on the streets making noise and so on.
I believe in the late middle ages (or even later?) when the people stopped believing in evil ghosts and demons and stuff like that because of the spread of christianity, they wanted to keep up the tradition and it was kept up for entertainment purposes.
And again, as time went by, the whole thing became commercial. Nevertheless,certain areas, like Franconia, where I live, have a long and proud tradition of carnival clubs of which some are older than 200 years already. The members spend a lot of money and time on making those traditional witch costumes and others like that. They try to spread the local traditions of carnival and to keep the ideas and traditions alive.
Nevertheless, in the first place the whole thing is fun of course.
Basically, we have 2 ways of celebrating carnival:
1. "Parade carnival": People line up on the two sides of a street and trucks drive along those streets. People aboard those trucks throw sweets towards the people around and pass free coffee, whine, beer and stuff. That is fun for children first of all, because they can dress up and eat sweets, but a lot of adults like to be around there as everyone is very relaxed and the chances of ending up in a strangers bed are quite well.

2. "Session carnival" (not sure about the expression, Tex?): Basically, a big party. Everyone usually gets quite drunk and people in the front give more or less funny speeches... Again, the fun is to be found either in getting pretty drunk or having sex with different partners.


Hm, I suppose I should apologise for the bad language up there. I'm feeling a bit dizzy today and have problems to focus on writing :-/
If there are any questions remaining unanswered, feel free to ask again.

Zitat von: "The Metal RN"

I guess, my favorite thing about Christmas was the meal my mom would make on Christmas eve,


I guess I'm quite a bit younger than you are, but in fact that meal is what is the most important thing about christmas for me also. We're usually having fondue and these about 2 hours sitting together with the family, eating, talking etc. ... great, absolutely great. Better than unwrapping presents or counting money - at least for me.

Metalmaiden

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Halloween
« Antwort #6 am: November 01, 2004, 03:50:07 Nachmittag »
Zitat
German tribes had a feast called "Asenblod" (might be something like "ancestors sacrifice"? Perhaps Tex can help out on that, because I honestly don't know) with the same dates. Everything was partially similar to the celtic celebrations and traditions, but still different.


Interesting. We understand it to have been brought over with the Irish immigrants  when they came here during the potato famine of 1840's.

Thanks for spliting the topic. I would love to hear what Tex has to add.  
Isn't there a medieval tradition of the poor going door to door one night around fall harvest begging for coins and cakes?

I'm just sorry that the bad had to go with the good so to speak. It is sad when people don't have respect for your feelings. About 20 years or so ago there are a few cities in this large country that celebrate Hell Night unhistoricly on Oct 30 that involves lighting fires (supposedly bonfires but generally it involved lighting cars on fire!) and causing mischief (soaping windows and throwing eggs and the toilet paper thing). There was also a  period in the 80's where dainted candy was given out. The holiday almost ended at that time but it is alive again as just a kid friendly, neighborhood kind of fun. and maybe  (America the big greedy corporation) the candy companies  had a hand it  -- I heard today on the news that 80% of all candy sold each year is sold around this time!

We really do start these traditions in respect to our ancestry and heritage and we share them with the others people of this country. After a while we sometimes  forget the true meaning of things. Personally I, as many people here  are, am such a mix. I have English ancestors that date back to the first European settlers as well a touch of Native American, but I also have  a German greatgrandfather who came here in 1900s , and Italian  grandparents  who settled here in the 1920s, supposedly there is French and Irish in my blood as well. All of their beliefs and traditions play a part in what my family celebrates.

This Dying Soul

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Halloween
« Antwort #7 am: November 02, 2004, 06:16:31 Vormittag »
I dont understand why it is such a "BIG" deal to celebrate holidays and nights like halloween.. I mean if you look in the bible when jezibels wish was to have john the bapitist? beheaded and served to her on a silver platter it was done.. hrm really wants me to jump up and celebrate on the 11th of this month doesnt it! Christmas is so far fetched now with trends and commercial aspects that if you dont get your child the very best of something or what he/she wants they become ill and throw fits. borhers and sisters fight just because the other envys or got something better then the other... and halloween.. well let me say something about that day.. I hate the day, it is an excuse for americans to let there heair down and say "fuck it all Im going to let my kids run ramped getting candy while I get all fucke up" yeah I do ahve a problem with that. I dont see the point of it any more when there are sick people out there relying on children as prey to poisen rape and murder children.. now dont get me wrong that happens every day in this world, and I mean that primarily in my sick country.. but halloween is a even more eventful day for such things. and it is because all parents can think about is going out and having a good time.. boy imagine the ones who dont feel so good when they come home to a police officor waiting at there door with news that there child has been hurt or murdered.. also it is a good excuse for people to go out as we call "GANSTERS" and kill steal and maim the comunitys for there personal pleasure as well..


as for thanksgiving.. that was supposed to be an american traditional holiday to give thanks for the great harvest, a new country, and the begining of friendship between the whites and the native poeple of the land before white trash hit our soil (yes I am being a bit of an ass when saying this because I am alaskan native so sorry to all who get offensive) and tormented my people, killed em and put them on th most unlivable land imaginable.. and with how things are now what is ther eto give thanks to? a crooked president who dont care about anything but getting revenge for big daddy bush? streets filled with trash and violence? freedom that is found in history books and not in our country??? what is there to give thanks about?????? being poor? saying fuck the world because my country is better and is more powerful then any one elses???? fuck all that!

Chrismas.. what is christmas.. hrm lets see. I thought christmas started out as an English holiday because of some dude named Chris Kringel.. maybe i am wrong but that is what i thought.. some time in the 18 hundreds or something like that.. to da y it is still true that is what they believe in. only it is the Christians (no pun intended I am one myself just dont believe in half the crap that most do) that made it a national holiday to embrace and remember the birth of our savior Jesus Christ..  well any true Christian knows that Jesus wasnt born on that day.. neisis 14 I believe was the day and in fact that was more around late summer or early fall what ever you wish to call it.. but it was a day given to the people to worship his birth.. well how come it cant be worshipped every day and not just that day??? and how is it celebrated?? poeple going broke to buy the best as I said above things they can get for the buck instead of doing things for the home to take care of the family.. they can starve the year out but noooo!! they have to have christmass.. I remember ahving it as a child growing up and I now hate it and dont participate in it because of the greed and crap it involves.. i only do to enjoy time with my family.. its the only itme of the year I get to spend with them.. but i have a family of my own now.. a 5 year old daughter and a 4 year old son.. so I can celebrate every day with them my love and how I cherish them.. and it is with love not toys.. dont get me wrong i dont deprive them of anything.. they have plenty to play with.. but I teach them it is something you give for love and life and as well as earning and not because some fat man said they were naughty or nice...

In America we ahve taken every excuse to and found every way to turn our greed into an excuse to have it with holidays.. i think they should take these holidays and shove em up there arses and leave me out of em......

TexJoachim

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Halloween
« Antwort #8 am: November 21, 2004, 11:28:37 Nachmittag »
Zitat von: "Metalmaiden"

Thanks for spliting the topic. I would love to hear what Tex has to add.  


Well, on what do you want my opinion?
:)

I have no idea where Asenblod might come from. I sense something with family ancestry there (blod, Blut, blood is too obvious), but I'm not exactly an expert on Germanic mythology. When mythology and the dark arts are concerned, I stopped that after finding out how Tarot really works. Actually, what is done with these cards is nothing more than educated guesses based on prior information and physical reaction of your client. Rather easy to do, in the end.

Concerning other mythologies, I own a copy of the Satanic Bilble: Interesting read, but nothing more than a humanist atheism with a lot of provoking rituals. I also have a book on Arthurian druidism (the soandso lectures to Arthur or something) written from scarce vidence, lots of guessword and I believe quite a number of illegal drugs by an American.

Concerning the modern capitalist version of Halloween, I'm guilty of extreme kitsch as I like to pass that feast away in Disneyland Paris. Pure kitsch, pure capitalism. When I can't go there (no time, no money, or simply forgot to order those tickets for the special party) we meet with friends to pass the night away watching horror movies.
I guess the fact that Harry Potter was a tremendous success and the resulting media coverage has aided the spread of that festivity over here.

Concerning carnival, we have to keep in mind that there are several regions with strong support (Rhineland), some with medium support (Bavaria?, Ruhrgebiet, ...) and several with no support whatsoever (Northern Germany).
If I'm correctly informed, the carnival celebrated today results from some kind of protest against Prussian soldiers in Cologne. That would date it back to, well, the 18th century at the latest.
The carnival season (in German: fünfte Jahreszeit or fifth season) starts at 11:11 on each 11.11. and ends on some christian holiday. I don't know more, because I'm neiter christian and utterly despise the German carnival.

Zitat

Isn't there a medieval tradition of the poor going door to door one night around fall harvest begging for coins and cakes?


Mediaeval tradition? I guess the poor begged for food any day and not only on certain holidays.
:)

Greetz,

Tex